Interesting Western news report about Mariupol in 2014

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

I don't know where the samples went. I have to do some research.
If you had access to the crash site, you could use a metal detector to find remnants of the plane even today.
What you do need is a variety of samples for comparison and different types of analysis.

I'm sure the data is out there. Just have to research it.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

I don't know where the samples went. I have to do some research.
If you had access to the crash site, you could use a metal detector to find remnants of the plane even today.
What you do need is a variety of samples for comparison and different types of analysis.

I'm sure the data is out there. Just have to research it.

I don't have access to anything, I work in I.T. at a defense manufacturer.

My team happens to share a training facility where entry level BDA training is also done and I've sat in on enough bits of those classes to learn a few things over the years, but I'm a complete amateur.


I asked about the electron microscope because I was looking for someone to confirm the ridiculously poor quality 'steel' used to produce T72s. I've seen images of it blown up like posters, but I don't have anything I can post here as evidence.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Summary of the analysis obtained after the crash. Cheap steel is one of the hallmarks of Russian weaponry.

This is an archived copy of the article. Not sure the link will work.
web.archive.org...://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/evidence-proving-flight-mh-17-was-taken-down-buk-missile

Evidence proving that flight MH-17 was taken down by a BUK missile

Investigation into the chemical composition showed that they are remains from a BUK missile, among which fragments from the warhead – the pay load. The fragment of the warhead consists of a low-quality alloy of steel common to this form of ammunition. It appears from electroscopic enlargements that a fragment shows a cast-on Cyrillic serial number from the Russian language next to a partly broken number 2.

Mr Akkermans found this fragment in November of last year in a part of the hull of MH-17 near the village of Grabova in Eastern Ukraine. He was in the war zone four months after the crash to find the truth about the death of the 298 passengers and crew of flight MH-17.

International experts endorse the conclusions of the forensic investigation. Defence experts of IHS Jane’s in London look into all weapon systems worldwide. They regard the damaged and deformed fragment below as a first piece of evidence. According to them the fragment directly belongs to the pay load of a 9M317 BUK missile, the modern version of the BUK 1-2 system. Expert Nicolas De Larrinaga: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."

The Polish defence journalist Juliusz Sabak attributes four fragments to MH-17 and three fragments to a soviet missile. "I think it’s a part of the missile that did not explode, a part of the tail."

The fragment shows part of the serial number with a broken off 2 and a Cyrillic Ц from the Russian alphabet. The number and the letter are cast onto the fragment. (photo Jeroen Akkermans / RTL News)

Other metal particles can be attributed to the MH-17 Boeing. For example, here we see that white-hot metal particles have formed small craters in a part of the hull. Embedded deep within one of those craters there is residue of artificial insulation material, a type of rock wool that can withstand very high temperatures.

German rocket scientists Schmucker and Schiller endorse these conclusions. They have also calculated the trajectory of a BUK missile based on data which are publicly accessible and on their knowledge of missiles. Markus Schiller: "Only a BUK missile can travel the distance to the plane at such a high altitude in such a short time and inflict so much damage. The mathematics fit exactly if you match the data for a BUK missile to the MH-17 crash."

His colleague Robert Schmucker: "It is consistent with the data from the hull fragments and the trajectory of the missile that a BUK missile brought down MH-17."

a reply to: Phantom423


Wow, that's pretty solid evidence.

Pretty absurd that russian propagandists are still trying to deny it was a missile, and it seems pretty clear that it was a russian manufactured missile at that.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

There's an article in The International Journal of Intelligence, Security, and Public Affairs
Volume 21, 2019 - Issue 3

The article is behind a paywall, but I have access to it. If you want it, send me a pm. Cannot post it here.

Unraveling Disinformation: The Case of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17

ABSTRACT
Disinformation has become an important aspect within today’s security environment. However, despite the burgeoning literature on the topic, only few studies deconstruct the concept of disinformation by making use of empirical evidence. This article intends to contribute to our understanding of disinformation, by analyzing the numerous deceptive messages that were spread in the aftermath of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, that crashed in the summer of 2014 in eastern Ukraine. More specifically the article emphasizes what kind of deceptive messages were being disseminated, what the strategic narrative was behind these messages, what deception mechanisms were used, what communication channels were used to disseminate the messages and finally what effects these messages had.To do this, the article draws upon investigative research done by the Bellingcat collective as well as on an analysis of numerous newspaper articles, videos and web-blogs. The paper concludes with a plea for more evidence-based research to further unravel the concept of disinformation and the effects it has.

edit on 26-5-2022 by Phantom423 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Phantom423


Please.

I haven't really paid attention to this incident since it seemed pretty obvious at the time that russia did it and that we weren't going to do anything about it, but russia's latest Ukrainian invasion and propaganda lies suddenly have me interested.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Salander

Even if you don't believe the West, Russia's own MOD has stated that the radar data they supplied to the JIT does not show any Ukrainian jets.

Might you have any sort of link to that MOD statement?

They supplied their radar data to international authorities within about 10 days, and it shows 2 climbing targets. The controversy was whether those targets were Su25 or 27. The Ukrainian women in the field described the same thing, fighter jets climbing.

As usual, the testimony of the women was quickly taken down because it was fatal to the narrative you advance here.

originally posted by: Salander

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Salander

Even if you don't believe the West, Russia's own MOD has stated that the radar data they supplied to the JIT does not show any Ukrainian jets.

Might you have any sort of link to that MOD statement?

They supplied their radar data to international authorities within about 10 days, and it shows 2 climbing targets. The controversy was whether those targets were Su25 or 27. The Ukrainian women in the field described the same thing, fighter jets climbing.

As usual, the testimony of the women was quickly taken down because it was fatal to the narrative you advance here.

You were blown out of the water with hard, scientific evidence. Go home.

a reply to: Salander

The news conference took place on September 26, 2016.

Russia Claims New Radar Data Shows Rebels Didn't Down MH17

In the press conference, Konashenkov presents the radar data that was ultimately handed over to the JIT. Conspicuously absent from the data is any other aircraft and Konashenkov makes no mention of Russia's previous Su-25 claims. Instead he states that it is impossible for the BUK that destroyed MH17 to have come from separatist territory.

a reply to: Phantom423

No, several worker ants showed up to try to prop up the long failed narrative of MH17. Multiple repetition of falsehoods do not make them become true. Let's hear it for Bellingcat!

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Phantom423

No, several worker ants showed up to try to prop up the long failed narrative of MH17. Multiple repetition of falsehoods do not make them become true. Let's hear it for Bellingcat!

Hard evidence speaks to the truth. You have no evidence, just a lot of word salad.

a reply to: Phantom423

Nor does the State Department have any evidence. That's been apparent since this incident. Just baseless claims from the government, 'word salad' as you call it. Nice term.

I prefer "propaganda".

originally posted by: JinMI

Do you believe there are nazis in Ukraine?

Did the US have a hand in destabilizing Ukraine?

I guess you are not up on current events. Russia has shifted their narrative reason once again. First it was to save the poor people in the area, then it was 30 US bio-weapon labs, then it was they need to kill Nazis. Guess what!

Now it is "its our land, our history, all of it is ours and we are going to take it back". Getting the Nazis is so last month....

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Phantom423

Nor does the State Department have any evidence. That's been apparent since this incident. Just baseless claims from the government, 'word salad' as you call it. Nice term.

I prefer "propaganda".

The investigation was done in the Netherlands, not the United States. All the photos that I posted of the evidence come from that investigation. You're wrong again. Get your facts straight.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Phantom423

No, several worker ants showed up to try to prop up the long failed narrative of MH17. Multiple repetition of falsehoods do not make them become true. Let's hear it for Bellingcat!

So you have some evidence then?

I'd like to see it.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

No, you would not like to see it. You and the Phantom prefer to avoid the facts and evidence, just like the US government, and British, and all the rest.

White Helmets and Bellingcat beat the drum to which you march.

a reply to: Salander

You accusing others of ignoring facts... thats pretty rich coming from you.

MH17 was shot down by Russian forces.
Russia used there position, and VETO, on the UNSC to block any investigation into Russia's crime.

Just as Russia did using their VETO to stop investigations into their unprovoked attack of Ukraine.

But by al means you keep lying. It makes our job easier when your own stupidity causes people to dismiss your claims as 1uneducated Russian sponsored drivel.