How do you convince someone otherwise who thinks all these UAP's are ours?

I think both are possibilities, actually. Although so he knows, Tesla said he was communicating with aliens on a certain device he invented. So if this goes back to Tesla, aliens are still involved.

Also - these craft seem to be using anti-gravity or field propulsion to fly, they do not use fossil fuels, wings, or propellers.

Another angle to take is that a lot of these craft seem to be based deep under the ocean, as they are most often seen near the coast and they have been seen diving into the water from the sky.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: TritonTaranis

So no answer to the logic problem then. Until you can answer that problem, you have a serious problem with the non-terrestrial explanation.

The logic problem is this... we now know, and this was after potentially hundreds of years of UFO reports, that its almost impossible for life not to be out there. its incredible arrogant to think were the only ones

But, we do have sightings and military video on multiple platforms and sensors... that is scientific evidence

So we have these unidentified objects performing incredible maneuvers beyond our own capabilities, FACT
We now also know life is pretty common out there FACT

The question is are they getting here, AND are those craft observed from somewhere else... we dont know

To say... DEY NOT ALEINS DEM, or pretend you know, is neither logical or scientific, it just makes you seem arrogant and closed minded

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
The logic problem is this... we now know, and this was after potentially hundreds of years of UFO reports, that its almost impossible for life not to be out there. its incredible arrogant to think were the only ones

Yeah, I hear that a lot, and it's a load of garbage. "Arrogant?" How exactly? Talk about your logic problems. Are you one of those people who believe, "Because of the descriptions, they couldn't be anything else but aliens because nothing on Earth moves that way?" That's a lot of nonsense. You can't logically jump from Point A (some funky thing flying around) to Point B (aliens) unless you know for sure specifically which aliens you're talking about.

Here's real logic, if you're interested. Somebody sees something flying around in some way they thing is strange, perhaps even beyond the capabilities of every flying thing on Earth (in their opinion), takes a video of it, thing flies away, don't know what it was. The only thing you can logically say about it is: you don't know what it is.

The real arrogance is thinking that you know about every single thing flying in the sky to such a degree that you know for sure that it's some kind of hypothetical "alien," even though the existence of aliens has never, ever been established by anyone. But you do. That's how great you are.

As for us being the only one? Nobody knows. However, there has never been any single shred of evidentiary proof presented by anyone that says there are any things living anywhere but Earth. That's not arrogance. That's just a simple fact. If it turns out that we are "alone" in the universe, it's neither here nor there. It's not sad. It's not hubris. It's just a fact. No other creatures will ever know how great or how stupid we are/were. We're not cattle. We're not gods. We're just living things who don't know how life began. How is that arrogance in any way?

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
So we have these unidentified objects performing incredible maneuvers beyond our own capabilities, FACT
We now also know life is pretty common out there FACT

Neither of those are facts. I've seen no convincing evidence of any incredible maneuvers and even David Fravor's claim of such (which is not very convincing being only unreliable eyewitness account with no video support) could conceivably be explained with earthly technology as discussed here. Radar and similar sensors can be spoofed so without any supporting video in visual frequencies, alleged amazing maneuvers on such sensors could result from sensor glitches or spoofing, the UAP report issued June 25, 2021 even says so:

www.dni.gov...
"In a limited number of incidents, UAP reportedly appeared to exhibit unusual flight characteristics. These observations could be the result of sensor errors, spoofing, or observer misperception and require additional rigorous analysis."

I would consider that a correction to your alleged first fact.

There could be thousands of planets with life in our galaxy alone, but it's not a fact that any of those life forms are necessarily intelligent. Intelligence is not any kind of apparent goal of the evolutionary process and in fact intelligent life has also been absent from Earth for most of its existence.

Where are all the aliens? | Stephen Webb

Stephen Webb makes some good arguments about why intelligent life could be much more rare than some people assume.

I would consider that a correction to your alleged second fact.

What you claim are facts are not facts.

Have a friend who used to be a radar tech on AWACs for almost 15 years, on drug interdiction in south America he recorded a signal that took off slow and then shot off his screen at incredible speeds, this was in the vicinity of tic tacs though years earlier.

He still believes it was ours, even though men in blacked out SUV's and dark suits showed up to debrief people and confiscate the data from the plane.

On the flip side I have had co-workers go on and work in some of those places that dont exist as aircraft maintenance and they believe in space aliens.

*shrugs* some cant bring themselves to believe and some need to be hit with a clue by four to go well maybe something outside the norm.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
*shrugs* some cant bring themselves to believe and some need to be hit with a clue by four to go well maybe something outside the norm.

I'd love to be hit with some indisputable proof of something before I go off accepting it as fact, rather than just listen to a lot of stories with nothing to back them up and believe them wholeheartedly. UFOs is not a religion, or at least shouldn't be. In my humble opinion.

I was just thinking it is probably a combination of both....intelligence of whatever is controlling these things as well as the vehicles the government has been able to create with the stuff Bob Lazar was working on...

originally posted by: Mantiss2021
a reply to: spacemanjupiter

How? Try this:

"If they are ours, show me, based on published, peer-reviewed research, the physics supporting the aerodynamic principles and/or technology that would be required to produce these objects and provide them with the capabilities they have demonstrated".

Technologies may be kept secret, but the physics which underlie them are available to all because the mathematical foundations of physics is available to all.

That same physics would have to be used to judge whether they are ETs, and the constraint there is even stronger given interstellar distances. ETs have to obey the laws of physics too.

If you insist on open full knowledge of standard physics as a prerequisite, the ET hypothesis becomes less likely than alternatives.

originally posted by: GoShredAK
I was just thinking it is probably a combination of both....intelligence of whatever is controlling these things as well as the vehicles the government has been able to create with the stuff Bob Lazar was working on...

I've considered that possibly ALL of it is true to some degree, and there's no definitive correct answer. Are they aliens? Some of them, sure. Are they government black projects? You can bet on it. Are they time travelers? Sure, because traveling in space is also traveling in time. Are they demons? Yes, if you go by the descriptions in ancient literature, not only the Bible but documents from other religions and cultures since essentially the start of civilization. Are they delusions? Absolutely some of them. And so on.

So we have a real grab bag, and whatever explanation fits depends on the very specific aspects and qualities of the thing being considered.

Also - these craft seem to be using anti-gravity or field propulsion to fly, they do not use fossil fuels, wings, or propellers.

Another angle to take is that a lot of these craft seem to be based deep under the ocean, as they are most often seen near the coast and they have been seen diving into the water from the sky.

Or my hypothesis: there are not material objects, but effects of directed energy lasers & microwave systems, making missile decoys, and by gimballing the lasers the intersection can appear to 'fly' very fast. They are near the coast because they are Navy projects.

Diving into the water is great if you want the missile to follow the decoy into the water.

For something thats top secret, why they so bright as hell and in the night time.

Could even wear sunglasses at night an still see them.

originally posted by: Proto88
For something thats top secret, why they so bright as hell and in the night time.

Could even wear sunglasses at night an still see them.

If you're a missile decoy you want to be seen in optical, infrared and visual.

IF (and a big if) there are phenomena which, in fact, are some true magic Warp Drive or Metric Engineering craft, it is also possible to likely that the emissions are an unavoidable consequence of the physical nature of the phenomenon.

These emissions and side-effects may also make them unsuitable for many military missions, so even if "we" had some big warp drive tech it explains why it's not deployed in anything standard.

They might be very un-stealthy. Who knows, suppose an enemy could shoot them down easily with microwave weapons? Or perhaps when the warp drive is on, the occupants and sensors might be totally blind to the outside world, and not be able to detect and evade an incoming guided missile?

The only strategic use might be pop-up surveillance: warp somewhere, de-warp, take pictures and skedaddle. This type of capability would always be kept very secret, as there is no useful deterrent value from open disclosure (unlike regular military weaponry), and disclosure would encourage an adversary to shoot it down right away rather than think "hmm, a weird UFO".

a reply to: spacemanjupiter

Over fifty years ago, I tried to convince my family and friends that I witnessed a UFO. They did not believe me and there was nothing I could do to convince them. I gave up, though I knew what I had saw.

I lived in a military town. A number of years later I had the privilege of watching the Harriet on display.

Again.

www.britannica.com...

a reply to: spacemanjupiter
How can any of us accuse another without sufficient evidence?
Why on Earth (pun intended) has this forum descended into a bear pit of opionation, disagreement, disparagement and ridicule?
Why can' we all learn to respect each other's views, no matter how they differ from our own?
Tolerance, folks. Tolerance. Life's too short. Why don't we all just stay focused on the subject? Which is the UAP. And not be slating each other.
This is supposed to be a community. Treat it as such.
Rant over, thanks for reading 🍻

My question, why do you need someone to convince? Say, you convinced your friend...then what?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I've been to them...Shamans drew them high on ahuyasca. They had out of body experiences flying up in the sky to look down at their drawings...that's the local legend. The Astronaut Man is the only one drawn on the side of a mountain, and it's an extra terrestrial. All the stuff on the History Channel, idk...

You can't force a baby to chew steak

originally posted by: Scrutinizing

What really pissed everybody off was just one question. I asked, if they're aliens from some advanced civilization, with such stunning, silent technology, that defies propulsion physics energy requirements and gravity, how did they manage to crash into a big, damned planet?

Ship was shot down, by us or someone else

originally posted by: spacemanjupiter
Me and a friend were having a friendly debate on all the UFO/UAP activity over the years. He believes it's all ours, experimental projects and craft via US black projects ran by groups unbeknownst to the public facing government we call congress. I stated that I wasn't making the claim that they are aliens, but that it's pretty clear they are not ours, and our government is fairly confident they are not Chinese or Russian. So what other options are there?

He insists they are still ours. I presented some issues, such as these objects have been recorded for decades going back to at least the 40s where they ('foo fighters') ran circles around Americans and Germans. He still thinks we had this technology even back then. I then suggested there are reports going even further back than the 40s. He then claimed that Tesla's work provided the frame work for this technology decades before even WW2. I then suggested there are reports even before Tesla of these objects buzzing around. He dismissed those and also hints from stories in the bible.

I don't insist these are aliens, but I think it's pretty far fetched to consider that we had this technology during WW2 or before. Am I wrong to assume that? It seems to me that it's very unlikely these are ours, and if it's possibly the Chinese or Russians, you better HOPE they are alien. Then, there's another possibility. They are terrestrial but went underground or under the oceans long, long ago. I try to come up with arguments such as, why would our own meddle with nuclear installation sites such as Malmstrom back in 1968? Just to test and see if we could shut down our own missile sites, apparently.

How do you convince someone that it's most likely not ours, whether it's alien or not? Is it just too difficult to make this argument? Are there any reliable reports before Tesla's time that are difficult to dismiss? I suppose if there isn't, anyone can easily just dismiss this whole thing by bringing up Tesla's work, T Townsend Brown, or black projects dating back before the 40s and just claim it's ours without even welcoming any kind of debate. Maybe he's right?

The way that they land and little space men get out of them is pretty convincing for me that they aren't ours.

Unless of course the USAF has started recruiting aliens as part of some new diversity program.