Resurrection of the Dead and Soul Control

If there is one concept which upon analysis immediately strikes an empirically minded person as absurdly inconsistent with the totality of facts we have about how nature works, it is the Christian (and Catholic) doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead. For example, how many humans are going to be resurrected upon the Earth if this is indeed the case? If we count from merely the year 1 CE, we're already talking about some 48 billion dead people waiting to be reborn on Earth when the Messiah comes. If we are more adventurous, we may include the last 50,000 years, and that would be 108 billion human souls waiting to be reborn. Since anatomically modern Homo Sapiens have been around - based on fossil records (and sciences like archeology likely to be rejected by religious people more committed to the sweet soothing calm of dogma than the newness of recent facts supported by reality) since around 350,000 years ago, we may amplify that number to some plausible postulate like 150 to 200 billion human souls.

So lets say that since modern homo sapiens have arrived on the Earth (and we can even be more realistic, and pinpoint the emergence of self-awareness and the soul/existential concerns back to homo erectus 1.5 million years ago), we're talking about hundreds of billions of individuals persons waiting to be resurrected from the dead!

But of course, Catholicism and orthodox Christianity, as well Judaism and Islam with similar beliefs, adumbrate the world into a form that fits nicely with their bureaucratic agendas. Presumably for Christians, only Christians will be resurrected; for Catholics, only those who follow the Holy Roman Catholic Church are resurrectable. For Jehovah Witnesses, this number shrinks to a very nerve racking 144,000. What a cruel world to live in.

Reincarnation

If the above discussion strikes one as deeply arbitrary and inherently unpalatable, because it basically says you only live once, and not only that, but that only certain people will be resurrected while everyone else who fails to meet some arbitrarily defined criteria merits eternal damnation, that may be the whole point.

There is something stress inducing in drawing such constraints around reality in the way Catholics, Christians, Jews, and Muslims do. Reality loses all its empirical dynamism and becomes a linear process from some set point in time to some undetermined but impending future which will have God "judge the living and the dead". Its stressful being a Catholic, a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, having to believe that reality is this unaccommodating, this demanding, and punishing even where it seems that neither you nor I seem to deserve this harsh treatment.

Think about the power that such a doctrine gives a person or group of people interested in controlling the mind of others. Compare this one time to live doctrine with the concept of reincarnation. With reincarnation, existence is a flowing continuity in both horizontal-ecological and vertical-existential directions. How we live today is a function of how we lived in a previous life. Choice exists in every now, and in every now we can enact the wisdom that comes from being a function of symmetry dynamics within our material bodies, otherwise known as the "golden rule". We can pay attention to the experiential realities of others and empathize with them, thereby improving their experiences of being and reality, or we can step roughshod over them as we project our own needs and ignore the middle way which allows us to reconcile our own needs with the needs of others. Love is the hub which determines reincarnation dynamics, and it also determines the quality of the bodies, families, and societies we grow into. None of us know a world of Eden because such a world entails that everyone be filled with the knowledge of God - i.e. the knowledge of How Reality Works. The following chart tries to capture some of the reoccurring structure that can be seen in the progressive evolution of the Universe in terms of the concept of Threeness.



In this scheme, every individual is simultaneously a function of the singularity it derives from - the Godhead, or what we may term "The Father"; every individual is also a human being, living in time, or what we may call "The Son"; and every individual is a function of the ecological dynamics inherent in the self-organizing Cosmos we grow from, or what we may call "The Holy Spirit". Whether or not this is the orthodox interpretation of the Christian trinity (it isn't) it's an interpretation that is far more consistent with the facts of what we are, how we work, and where we come from.

From this perspective, reincarnation makes a whole lot of sense. Humans are souls, and lets say there's a limited number of them associated with this planet (leaving open the possibility that other planets have their own souls with their own histories). Lets say that number is something around 8 billion, give or take a few hundred million. Every one of these souls has lived at some time during the 1.5 million year history since the human self has evolved from Homo Erectus. We have so many histories all of us; some of us have reached epochal status as chieftains, only to follow up that life as a slave, and then a slave, and then a commoner. There is an economics to reincarnation that has to do with the surplus of good you've experienced and how you've come to experience it, and the amount of pain you've endured and how you've come to endure it. This is a process which combines chance, necessity and a little bit of free will. The organization of these processes is not nearly as mysterious or transcendental as it may sometimes be represented. For example, we are already possessors minds that are organized from symmetry dynamics between brains; and the brain, and body is always interacting with a world. All of the acts we engage in are recorded and registered in bodies, and these bodies both live and at the same mete out the facts of karma. We can harm another person and post-facto, that may have been a function of necessity; but it was also at the same time an act of free will which we chose to enact. This means that we have some negative necessity coming our way.

Soul Control

The traditions of Rome and of Big Men since time immemorial have been dark, dangerous and depressing. Few matters are as terrifying and intimidating as knowing how Rome and other cults which worship power run things. These men (in principle its about maleness) are dedicated to power, and in being dedicated to power, they are driven by the same sorts of facts that have organized the theories of aboriginal peoples all over the world. The professor of Archeology at Simon Fraser University Brian Fraser has written three magnificent books: Shamans, Sorcerers, and Saints, 'The Power of Feasts', and 'The Power of Ritual in Prehistory', all of which detail the way elites have used food, and territory to amass more and more power for themselves. Indeed, Fraser see's todays world of social complexity to be a direct descendent of this very same process - which hasn't stopped, and has now reached its zenith in todays Neoliberal world order.

Is the resurrection of the dead not a brilliant control tactic to keep people tense, afraid, unsure, and above all, out of their own heads, reflecting on their own experience of how reality works? To believe...

once, and furthermore, how you should live is directly known by the Roman Catholic Church, or the Imams in Baghdad or Cairo, or the Rabbis of Jerusalem, makes how you live and what you believe to be the case to be a very serious and very anxious matter.

Since love is the path of least resistance, a person subject to such a structure will not be able to see reality for what it is.When we live around others who know this truth, this truth becomes enhanced for us. When we lie around others who are governed by the structures of the society controlled by Rome and its ilk, we are reduced by their presence, and this truth becomes baseless speculation.

Love is a dyadic, shared phenomenon that is all about acceptance. Of course, there are some matters which should no be accepted - such as being goaded into a cattle cart to be murdered in a concentration camp. But most of life and reality is about accepting the good with the bad, and not putting up an unnecessary resistance. Is this not what makes Abel different from Cain? Cain comes from the word "Cayan" - 'to acquire', whereas Abel comes from the root word 'Hevel', "vapor". The very beginnings of the Hebrew bible contain the rather aboriginal message (very differently interpreted in traditional Judaism) that living rightly is like being a vapor - like the wind: you got to go with the flow of things. Cain - or the Big Men, Nephilim (this story clearly refers to the thousands upon thousands of years where human societies we're controlled by big men) are acquisitive, power hungry types who wont rest until they get what they desire. They're good at it too - very good at it. They are the proverbial snakes that Jesus says people should be wise-like. You have to know how a sociopath would be motivated to act to appreciate how some people - like politicians, corporate CEOs, military men, or certain religious figures - do in fact act. Its ugly, but true.

The point about this thread is that a heavily regimented, bureaucratic, and dominating religious system is most likely false, because it makes what we are uncomfortable and tense, and puts us out of tune with one another - an effect which only a sociopath could be wily enough to exploit and take pleasure in effectively exploiting.

Resurrection of the Dead: An Optimistic Interpretation

At the most optimistic level, we can say that the resurrection of the dead is not a literal resurrection of every dead body into its old bodily form, but rather, a resurrection of a concept of the human self that has been dead, or suppressed, for over 2,000 years in the western world. With knowledge of reincarnation comes a different attitude towards death and a sense that death itself is an illusion. That is, death is only a matter for the physical individual body and the individuated personality. It is not the death of the actual animating principle - the soul, the love - that brought that human being into existence, and will one day be the same force that brings that human being back into existence. And by what mechanism?

What dreams do we still have that are unfulfilled? The gift of the physical universe is that it is continuously changing, and in changing, constantly changes what we desire and what we find interesting, exciting, and achievable.

The world creates dreams and hopes for every soul, and so every soul has an unfulfilled dream - even the Dalai Lama seeks to know more about how the brain works, and im sure, would be curious to know about worlds beyond our world. This must be the mechanism which drives the reincarnation process, at some quantum, virtual-particle level, the bodies of living beings today contain the ecological conditions for the quantum soul - the pattern - of some previous self - to come back into existence, to experience another, exciting, unpredictable, round of life.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Surely you are assuming that the numbers are based upon the current world situation.

How many billions of billions of humans might live under the surface of a Dyson Sphere?

What about large structures that provide complete environment for human life extending out beyond the limit of the atmosphere?

We have a large and relatively empty universe that we can build from, and into. The limits you perceive are not truly anything like the real limits.

Obviously, you have to re-think things.

a reply to: chr0naut

We can't even keep an astronaut in space for a year without their body falling apart - their bones, muscles and even their DNA. You make building into space far more simple and easy a thing than it would otherwise be.

BTW, is this in response to my criticism of the resurrection of the dead?

The Flood. The Flood of Noah's day (2348 BC) was a year-long global catastrophe that destroyed the pre-Flood world, reshaped the continents, buried billions of creatures, and laid down the rock layers. It was God's judgment on man's wickedness and only eight righteous people, and representatives of every kind of land animal, were spared aboard the Ark.
duckduckgo.com...

Give you a starting point for you to consider your what iffs.
Ask yourself why God would do that and then see if you can find an answer to adequately satisfy your senses.

While I am not in the best state of mind to grasp everything you wrote, I believe, maybe incorrectly, that you believe in reincarnation, and are trying to give reasoning for this?

I completely do.
I have been talking to a few lately, about a simplistic way of explaining the soul.
Compare it to "the cloud"
That is our soul.
Our body wears out and dies. Our soul is still intact.

And your bit about love?
Love is Eden. When we leave our bodies, and are waiting for our return, if we have to, we go to the "ether"
Where all we know is perfect love.

Very simplistic version of what I believe, but I hope you get the gist.

The resurrection Jesus refers to is the ascension of souls into the next realm, not back to the same old earth.

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

The New Jerusalem / New earth would be something more fitting for our next-level bodies. Reincarnation did occur in the Bible though, but it was only because Elijah never died, instead he was taken up to heaven during his life. Elijah was then conceived in John the Baptist's mother:

" I found the soul of the prophet Elijah in the æons of the sphere; and I took him thence, and took his soul and brought it to the Virgin of Light, and Of the incarnation of John the Baptizer. That John was Elijah in a former birth. she gave it over to her receivers; they brought it to the sphere of the rulers and cast it into the womb of Elizabeth (John the Baptist's mother). " Pistis Sophia

and also:

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come" Matthew 11:14


Reincarnation seems to be the rare exception, and not the rule. Perhaps it only applies to ascended masters like Elijah. I dunno.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: chr0naut

We can't even keep an astronaut in space for a year without their body falling apart - their bones, muscles and even their DNA. You make building into space far more simple and easy a thing than it would otherwise be.

BTW, is this in response to my criticism of the resurrection of the dead?

Not entirely in space.

It is relatively simple to build larger and higher structures for housing people. And, rather than making them towers, you could make them extend over extremely large areas, like hundreds of miles on a side.

One such large structure - the prophesied New Jerusalem is 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles in size and has the potential to house more than the current population of the Earth in itself. It would cover a land area just less than the United States and would stick out of the atmosphere by a considerable distance.

Of course, we'd need new technologies for any such construction and not all levels would be liveable with our current technologies, but the New Jerusalem is apparently spacefaring and descends from the skies.

Perhaps it remains in orbit, or has a counterweight that orbits far enough away to tension the structure? It'd also make access to space a whole lot simpler than rocketry.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Absolutely hit the nail on the head, brilliantly laid out thoughts difficult for some of us to summarize.

I appreciate the book/author reference

a reply to: Astrocyte

You have it so very wrong.

In the resurrection there will be no difference between a man and a woman, you shall neither be given nor taken in marriage, you shall have new body's (spiritual body's) like the angel's.

You seem to think we are all going to be exactly as we are now in this flawed and corrupted form, that is now what our god teaches, there is a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH for us for the old ones are past away.

But even if he decided to raise us here he can do that with no problem at all and by the way the earth could hold a far more than the number you have quoted BUT how big is a spirit, does it occupy space and volume in the same way as a body?.
What about the higher dimension of the new heaven and the new earth are they measured in exactly the same way or are they greater than the old that is past away.


I shall say this there are devil's that come on here and attack faith, not because THEY do not believe but because they do not want other's to believe, they are not prophet's or messiah's preaching the truth they are preaching from prejudice and hatred, from lies and misconceptions and deviations from the truth.

HE that believe's in ME shall never die AND HE that believe's in ME though he were DEAD yet shall he LIVE, these are the words of Jesus the way, the life and the resurrection, HE whom see's me see's the father, I tell you no one but the son has seen the father not even the angels in heaven have seen the father but the son alone as seen the father, The father is in the me and I am in the father, He who see's me see's the father.

SO you die, are you dead, well if you deny Christ most certainly you are but that does not remove from you the resurrection to judgement you shall still have to face that and since you deny Christ you will not be calling on his name.

They say misery loves company so maybe that is why so many try to lead other's astray and deny them there salvation.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GNOSIS OR SOPHIS.
Christ said this, I shall forgive them what they know not.

ALL knowledge, GNOSIS and all earthly wisdom and philosophy (SOPHIS) is worthless, the beginning of TRUE wisdom is knowing that you know nothing.

a reply to: CharlesT

Nope if god had to do that it means gods not perfect. Also it didn't happen.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Well there are those who take the testaments literally as if people about 2000 years ago somehow knew everything.
And others who know cultural evolution is an ongoing process.
It's not really worth arguing with the first group, because psychologically speaking it's a longing for stability that's per se not rational.
But then there are people like you who acknowledge science is trial and error but assume the search for good has to be perfectly true always or it has no merit at all, which is much closer to the first group mentally than you'd probably care to admit.
One day science will prove "the observer" and you'll swallow it without grasping what that means. And god will laugh and love you still...

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: CharlesT

Nope if god had to do that it means gods not perfect. Also it didn't happen.

I wouldn't be so sure, you have to keep in mind the "world" in the bible is quite small. There was a flood not for sure, but very likely in Noah's world.
Plus there's evidence mankind has been through a few "Judgement Days" we call them bottleneck events. When god/fate/evolution muck out the genepool...

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Astrocyte

Well there are those who take the testaments literally as if people about 2000 years ago somehow knew everything.
And others who know cultural evolution is an ongoing process.

When the Archetype of the Logos embodies purely without inhibition, it is a good idea to see what the Logos had to say. It is not some lame message, but a truth that is literally as great as you able your self to believe.

"According to your faith, be it unto you."

Which I'm sure once quantum biology is fully understood that will be the message from the scientists as well.

Gnostics does differ from the Christian narrative but the one good thing I learned from it, is that the Demiurge would be an expression of the ego or self. He was born ignorant of his origins, and blindly beleives himself to be the only being or god. Although he would be the Devil himself in Gnostics, he can be considered no more then a dumb little child who doesnt know better, even though he is a power house responsible for creation,

It kind of is the ultimate expression of the self, which is why Gnostics(Jews or Christians), or Platonic followers used to believe this stuff. And how the Demiurge/Artisan can fit so well into Jewish lore.

Not only that it does come from a much older culture, which was why the expression might have been very common place before Christainity.

One problem that occur with that school of thought is that it can lead one to beleive that material world is inherently evil, but it no different then idea of the original sin or Satan being the prince of the world being an explanation to a grim reality or misfortunes.

Ye be Gods comes to mind, although I wouldn't take it literally.

a reply to: cooperton

I'm sorry I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say?
I assume with the Logos you mean Jesus?

"... as great as you able your self to believe" what?

a reply to: cooperton

and also:

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come" Matthew 11:14

To understand this verse, you have to read it in context. For starters the following verse is...

Matthew 11:15 - He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That verse above means that you can't take the previous verse at face value and that it has a spiritual meaning that only those with the Holy Spirit would understand. Much like when Jesus spoke in parables throughout the gospels.

John was not Elijah and he told everyone so...

John 1:21 - 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Maybe this will help you to understand the comparison...

www.bibletools.org...

originally posted by: Deetermined


To understand this verse, you have to read it in context. For starters the following verse is...

Matthew 11:15 - He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That verse above means that you can't take the previous verse at face value and that it has a spiritual meaning that only those with the Holy Spirit would understand. Much like when Jesus spoke in parables throughout the gospels.

"according to your belief, let it be so" is repeated elsewhere

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." Matthew 21:22

He means exactly that. Belief will produce results. If you do not believe that, that is the problem.

John was not Elijah and he told everyone so...

John 1:21 - 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

That's the interesting distinction. John said he wasn't Elijah reincarnate. Jesus said John was Elijah reincarnate. This goes to show that John was unaware that he was the reincarnated Elijah... But Jesus knew that he was Matthew 11:14

a reply to: Astrocyte

At the most optimistic level, we can say that the resurrection of the dead is not a literal resurrection of every dead body into its old bodily form, but rather, a resurrection of a concept of the human self that has been dead, or suppressed, for over 2,000 years in the western world.

Everyone will be resurrected into a body that is different than the physical one we have here on earth. Not all will be resurrected at the same time either.

1 Corinthians 15:42-46

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Revelation 20:5-6

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

a reply to: cooperton

That's the interesting distinction. John said he wasn't Elijah reincarnate. Jesus said John was Elijah reincarnate. This goes to show that John was unaware that he was the reincarnated Elijah... But Jesus knew that he was Matthew 11:14.

Once again, you have to read the link for the relating verses as to what happened here. There's more to the story.

Luke 1:17 - 17 And he (John) shall go before him (Jesus) in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The "spirit and power" of both Elijah and John was the work of God's Holy Spirit that worked through both of them to prepare a path for the followers of their times.

Luke 1:13-17

"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17).