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originally posted by: cooperton
originally posted by: narrator
In my opinion, debating whether or not god exists is pointless.
Why are you here then? I would go through and answer all the questions you raised but you're only asking them to try to trap people, you don't actually care to learn other perspective. So again, why are you even here?
originally posted by: SeaWorthy
originally posted by: narrator
originally posted by: SeaWorthy
a reply to: narrator
If you've read my post, you'll notice that I've read the bible, in it's entirety.
Reading through the bible you don't learn much, ancient texts can be confusing.
Then how would you suggest I learn?
I've been told in this thread that my Catholic upbringing shouldn't affect my thoughts on religion, and now I'm being told that the bible shouldn't hold weight either.
What else is there? Just blindly believe in it?
I hope you are not being serious. I am to old for games I don't get. Did you not understand what was said or just joking?
My statement is that it takes a lot more than reading through the bible once. Ask and you shall receive, if you want to know ask God in Jesus name and he will help you in .
I cannot count the times I have read through the bible, yet every time I learn more.
originally posted by: narrator
So, we're to believe that god:
-God creates all sorts of things that will kill us in terrible ways (disease, etc
-Doesn't tell us how to solve those problems, even though he knows how because he's omnipotent.
-Tells us we have to love him or we go to hell
even though he's given us zero proof he actually exists.
-Created us in his image, but condemns people to hell for acting the way they were created.
-Gave us free will, but if we use it to decide to follow another religion (or none) then condemns us to hell.
-Told a guy to kill his son (Abraham and Isaac) as a sacrifice to prove his devotion.
Bottom line, to me, the Christian god seems sociopathic.
I have no desire to believe in and worship someone who has supposedly done so many outright terrible things.
www.marquette.edu...
Made with a pattern... This description of the two creations, the invisible creation which was the pattern for the visible is usually said to be Philo retelling the Genesis account in terms derived from Plato, but this I doubt. Philo was from a priestly family[8], and it is not impossible that he was giving the traditional explanation of the creation stories which owed nothing to Plato. The speaker in Proverbs 8 also saw the works of Day One.
The speaker was begotten[29] before the mountains, the hills and the earth, and was with the Creator when he established the heavens and the fountains of the deep and when he set limits to the waters and marked out the foundations of the earth. This chapter emphasises that the speaker was witness to the works of Day One. The one who was newly born witnessed the creation, exactly what Cosmas, many centuries later, said of Moses.
Then having taken him up into the mountain, he hid him in a cloud and took him out of all earthly things... and he gave him a new birth as if he were a child in the womb... and revealed to him all that he had done in making the world in six days, showing him in six other days the making of the world, performing in his presence the work of each day.... (Cosmas 3.13)[30] When Philo described the apotheosis of Moses on Sinai he said that he entered the darkness where God was; ‘...the unseen, invisible, incorporeal, and archetypal essence of all existing things and he beheld what is hidden from the sight of mortal nature’ (Moses 1.158).
This is what the Qumran texts describe as the raz nihyeh, (4Q300, 417), what 1 Peter describes as ‘the things into which angels long to look’ (1 Pet.1.12). Elsewhere Philo explained that this invisible world was made on the first day of the creation .. a beautiful copy would never be produced apart from a beautiful pattern... so when God willed to create this visible world he first fully formed the intelligible (i.e. invisible) world in order that he might have the use of a pattern wholly God-like and incorporeal in producing the material world as a later creation, the very image of the earlier (Creation 16) 1.
The ability to see the future the veil between the holy and most holy as a divider between our reality and the creator. When Ezra asks about the LORD's future plans for his people, he is assured that the One who planned all things would also see them to their end. Everything had been decided ‘before the winds blew and the thunder sounded and the lightning shone, before the foundations of paradise were laid and the angels were gathered together, before the heights of the air were lifted up and the measures of the firmaments were named, before the present years were reckoned’ (2 Esdr.6.1-6).
Ezra is told that everything was planned in the holy of holies, before time. The visionary saw history depicted on the veil, on the other side, so to speak, of matter and time. This probably explains the experience of Habakkuk, centuries earlier, who stood on the tower, a common designation for the holy of holies[11], and saw there ‘a vision of the future, it awaits its time, it hastens to the end, ... it will surely come it, will not delay’ (Hab.2.2-3). He recorded what he saw on tablets. 2 Baruch, on the other hand, says that Moses on Sinai received a vision rather than instruction and that it included knowledge about the future. He showed him.. ‘the end of time...the beginning of the day of judgement... worlds that have not yet come’ (2 Bar.59.4-10 c.f. 2 Esdr.14.4). Something similar was said of Jesus by the early Christian writers Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria and Origen: that he was the high priest who had passed through the curtain and revealed the secrets of the past, the present and the future
[12]. History seen in the sanctuary, whether this was described as a tower or as Sinai, was history seen outside the limitations of space and time and this explains why histories in the apocalyptic writings are surveys not only of the past but also of the future as everything was depicted on the veil. 2. People need a new form to visit god or heaven In 2 Enoch there is an account of how Enoch was taken to stand before the heavenly throne. Michael was told to remove his earthly clothing, anoint him and give him the garments of glory; ‘I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones’ (2 En.22.10).
This bears a strong resemblance Zechariah 3, where Joshua the high priest stands before the LORD, is vested with new garments and given the right to stand in the presence of the LORD. As late as the sixth century Cosmas Indicopleustes, an Egyptian Christian, wrote a great deal about the temple and its symbolism, and we shall have cause to consider his evidence at several points.
Of Moses he said: the LORD hid him in a cloud on Sinai, took him out of all earthly things ‘and begot him anew like a child in the womb’ (Cosmas Christian Topography 3.13), clearly the same as Psalm 2; ‘I have set my king on Zion... You are my son. Today I have begotten you’ but using the imagery of reclothing with heavenly garments, rather than rebirth.
Originally posted by cooperton
Fear of God works in the same way that fear of your biological parents prevented you from playing with fire, indulging in risky behavior, and so forth. If you truly believe God is omniscient, then it is absolutely illogical to not strive towards an entire orientation with God's will. Surely, due to God's omniscience, God will know what would bring you happiness more than you do. For this reason your attempts to force happiness on your self with hedonistic pursuits will always be digging a bottomless pit. Whereas practicing altruism, forgiveness, righteousness and the love meant to unite humanity back together will re-align your self with God.
Joecroft How can I also love that which I fear…?
It’s actually our spiritual dis-connection from God that leads to fear, and uncertainty etc…
My parents would always explain to me why something was wrong…They taught me the difference and that’s why I loved them…It’s the exact same thing with God. God wants us to know right from wrong…It’s through understanding God and our spiritual connection to him…that we learn to live more righteously…not through fear imo…- JC
originally posted by: Nothin
originally posted by: KansasGirl
originally posted by: Nothin
originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: narrator
Child bettered by fearing a parent -Holding back affection to demonstrate a point This sounds like terrible parenting. Children should see their parents as a source of comfort, security, and knowledge, not fear.
Children that behave often do it because of fear of repercussions from loving parents. Otherwise you have footballs being thrown in areas where things can break or children doing dangerous things that may harm them or others. A healthy fear of parents is essential in bringing up well behaved children.
1955 called: they want their 'Father Know's Best'; children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard; that deserves a paddlin'; .."...well behaved children..."... , BS back.
IMHO: ..."...well behaved children..."... is a self-serving parenting interest, and the tactics used to achieve such (fear), have nothing to do with child development.
..."...Your little statement is one of the most ignorant I've read on this site..."...
Sorry that you see it that way.
Perhaps you'll understand, that am not interested in responding to your questions.
originally posted by: KansasGirl
originally posted by: Nothin
originally posted by: KansasGirl
originally posted by: Nothin
originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: narrator
Child bettered by fearing a parent -Holding back affection to demonstrate a point This sounds like terrible parenting. Children should see their parents as a source of comfort, security, and knowledge, not fear.
Children that behave often do it because of fear of repercussions from loving parents. Otherwise you have footballs being thrown in areas where things can break or children doing dangerous things that may harm them or others. A healthy fear of parents is essential in bringing up well behaved children.
1955 called: they want their 'Father Know's Best'; children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard; that deserves a paddlin'; .."...well behaved children..."... , BS back.
IMHO: ..."...well behaved children..."... is a self-serving parenting interest, and the tactics used to achieve such (fear), have nothing to do with child development.
..."...Your little statement is one of the most ignorant I've read on this site..."...
Sorry that you see it that way.
Perhaps you'll understand, that am not interested in responding to your questions.
Trust me, I TOTALLY understand why you aren't interested in answering my questions.
That's a cowardly cop-out, and suggests that you're using it so that you don't have to admit they are good questions and my points about raising well-behaved children are spot on.
But go ahead and try to pretend it's not obvious why you won't answer the questions.
originally posted by: SeaWorthy
originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: cooperton
Gods aren’t real. People’s imaginations are though. I think your rant goes a long way to back that up.
tHERE IS A LOT AT STAKE SO i HOPE YOU HAVE HEAVILY RESEARCHED YOUR POSITION.
dO YOU EVER WONDER WHY SO MANY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE OVER (SORRY) the centuries have felt the opposite of you?
MANY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE OVER (SORRY) the centuries have felt the opposite of you?
originally posted by: cooperton
... Now is the time to change your mind, and remove yourself from the self-destructive habits. ... Taste and see.
Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man.”—ECCLESIASTES 12:13.
DOES the expression “fear of God” sound strange to you? Many may feel that if they really love God, they should not have to fear him too. Do we really have to do both? If so, how does the fear of God benefit us?
2 The Scriptures show that our worship and service of God must be based on love. Jesus made this clear when he told us to love Jehovah with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. (Mark 12:30) But the importance of fearing God is also stressed in his Word. Very pointedly, we are told at Ecclesiastes 12:13: “Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man.” Is Jehovah inconsistent in asking us to fear him and to love him at the same time?
3 Not really—if we keep in mind that there are different kinds of fear. When people think of fear, they usually have in mind a morbid feeling that destroys hope and makes us discouraged. Obviously, Jehovah would not want us to feel that way about him! Our heavenly Father wants us to come to him just as a child would come to his father, confident of his father’s love and yet at the same time fearing to displease him. Such fear will help us remain obedient to our heavenly Father when tempted to do wrong. This is a proper “godly fear” that Christians must have.—Hebrews 5:7; 11:7.
4 Jehovah is not like an unfeeling judge who simply punishes his servants each time they slip. Rather, he loves them and wants them to succeed. So if we make a mistake or commit a sin, fear of Jehovah should not restrain us from speaking to him about it. (1 John 1:9; 2:1) Our respectful fear of Jehovah is not a fear of being rebuffed or rejected. As we read at 1 John 4:18: “There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint.” “Perfect love,” however, would not eliminate the deep respect and proper fear that we should have for Jehovah as our Creator and Life-giver.—Psalm 25:14.
Consider the Benefits
...
Yes, the Bible teaches that Satan the Devil is, indeed, a real person. Critics of the Bible, however, scoff at such a portrayal of the Devil. Satan, they say, merely represents the principle of evil that resides in humans.
Should we be surprised by the confusion regarding Satan’s true identity? Not at all. To illustrate: A criminal might wipe his fingerprints from a crime scene so that he may conceal his identity and thus continue his illegal activity undetected. Similarly, Satan is a criminal mastermind who is content to operate behind the scenes, promoting moral corruption. Jesus clearly identified Satan as the one responsible for the evil state of human affairs. Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world.”—John 12:31.
...
The corrupt state of human affairs bears testimony to the existence of a real Devil. The nations of this world let surplus food rot while their hungry populations starve. The nations store up weapons of mass destruction for mutual annihilation. They pollute earth’s environment. Yet, most people are blind to the source of such hateful, self-destructive behavior. Why?
The Bible reveals that Satan “has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) To manipulate humanity, Satan employs an invisible organization. He is “the ruler of the demons.” (Matthew 12:24) Just as a boss of an organized crime ring can run a large illegal empire without revealing himself to all those involved, so Satan uses his insidious organization of wicked angels to control masses of people who remain largely unaware of his role or influence.
How thankful we can be that the Bible unmasks the Devil and exposes his organization! We can thus take steps to resist the Devil’s influence. The Bible admonishes us: “Subject yourselves . . . to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you.”—James 4:7.
originally posted by: Woodcarver
If you have some hard evidence I am willing to take a look at it. But if you only have opinion and anticdote, I will be happy to point it out as such.
originally posted by: cooperton
a response to: Woodcarver
You'll surely bury your head in the sand, because you aren't looking for proof of God, you're looking for proof that God doesn't exist. ...
Again, what would suffice for you as proof of God?
originally posted by: cooperton
a reply to: whereislogic
very well said thank you. Hebrews 12 is mostly about logically addressing the discipline of God
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrew 12:7-11)
originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Nothin
Haven't seen a decent argument for WHY children should be disciplined, other than parental self-interest.
Remember those words next time a group of kids thinks its cool to throw stones at the windows of your car or home.
Why should children behave the way you want them to?
originally posted by: Nothin
What's the difference, if it's an adult or a kid causing damage?
Do you assume that disciplined children are never naughty?
Why should children behave the way you want them to?
originally posted by: SeaWorthy
a reply to: Nothin
Why should children behave the way you want them to?
A someone who has seem a lot of life I can say.
1. Children do not feel loved when they are allowed to just do as they will.
2 The People I know who were raised undisciplined are alcoholics, drug addicts and some dead at young ages.
3. The lovingly disciplined who I have watched grow up are confident, accomplished happy men and Women and have wonderful lives.
originally posted by: cooperton
originally posted by: Nothin
What's the difference, if it's an adult or a kid causing damage?
Do you assume that disciplined children are never naughty?
Why should children behave the way you want them to?
Discipline is a means of correcting self-destructive behavior. Just like adults who commit crimes go to jail. There are repercussion for actions.