Why is the cow depicted in the Temple arrangement of Israel?

a reply to: AthlonSavage

whatever.

In conjunction with EL wearing ox/bull horns, and his name being spelled with the pictograph of an ox head (Aleph),...

The God of the Levant was also called Toru EL / Bull EL / Bull God.


Numbers 23:33

”From Egypt God (EL) brought them— his strength was like a wild ox!” (International Standard Version)

”God (EL) brings them out of Egypt and is for them like the horns of the wild ox.” (English Standard Version)

a reply to: lostinspace

Has anyone ever read the cow prophecy of Enoch?

Not meaning to cause an argument of any sort but I believe you have a very corrupt rendition of 1 Enoch or that you have really misread the entire prophecy of Enoch one. In the "Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Apocalptic Literature and Testaments [vol. one] by James H. Charlesworth, Chapter 88 has only three verses while chapter 89 has 77 verses and contains somewhat of what you have posted.

Nevertheless, what you are reading is actually the prophecy of the flood of Noah. Now one should realize that Enoch was living in the antediluvian period [pre flood era] where the world was engulfed in a canopy of water and neither clouds or rain was yet in this closed environment. Also the races of people were not as yet established as is told in the white, black and red races which came off the boat which represents Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Enoch had no understanding of what would happen when this greenhouse world would be changed by this flood nor the ramifications of the changes of science. Therefore it is postulated by deep scholars opinions that the visions were given in the manner of what Enoch could understand. It has no inference to worship of a bovid creation but only to show Enoch what he could reference his vision to his understanding. Religion was not instituted at this time.

my opinions of course

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Cattle were a sacrificial animal, very important for working and eating
Covenants were cut in cattle, it's pretty obvious the significance of cattle

God made a covenant with Abraham walking through the pieces of cattle that was sacrificed
God used a human ritual to make Abraham understand the covenant He made

Genesis 15, pretty clear the value of cattle, God met Abraham at his own human level

So they ate cows. So what. Hardly a religious experience. Or should they have been worshiping turnips, too? Magic mushrooms now thats cause to worship something. And you can bet the olds were eating everything they could to see colored geometric flames, to 'see' 'god', shooting out of the campfire at night. Hell, by 5000BC beer was already the beverage they all drank all day long, everywhere they could possibly manage it.

Manna From Heaven, man, Manna From Heaven. Dudes were so tripped out they got lost in the wilderness for 40 friggin years, man.

The Enoch passage I quoted in the Opening Post is from the Richard Laurence 1883 version.

Here is the quote again. Enoch 88:12-17

"Then the white cow, which became a man, went out of the ship, and the three cows with him. One of the three cows was white, resembling that cow; one of them was red as blood; and one of them was black. And the white cow left them. Then began wild beasts and birds to bring forth. Of all these the different kinds assembled together, lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, wild boars, foxes, rabbits and the hanzar. The siset, kites, the phonkas and ravens. Then a white cow was born in the midst of them."

www.sacred-texts.com...

Here is the same passage in the R.H. Charles 1917 version. Enoch 89:8-10

“Then the water began to run down into these, till the earth became visible; but that vessel settled on the earth, and the darkness retired and light appeared. But that white bull which had become a man came out of that vessel, and the three bulls with him, and one of those three was white like that bull, and one of them was red as blood, and one black: and that white bull departed from them. And they began to bring forth beasts of the field and birds, so that there arose different genera: lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, hyenas, wild boars, foxes, squirrels, swine, falcons, vultures, kites, eagles, and ravens; and among them was born a white bull. And they began to bite one another; but that white bull which was born amongst them begat a wild ass and a white bull with it, and the wild asses multiplied."

www.sacred-texts.com...

Since the cow becomes a man in the first version then the creature must really be a bull. The R.H. Charles version corrects that error. All the cow terms change to bull in the newer version. Also, as Seede pointed out this prophecy starts with the Flood event. The first white bull is Noah. The three bulls from him are his sons Ham, Shem and Japheth. The passage continues to mention more white bulls coming on the scene in relationship to other animals. Most likely the 1st white bull from Noah is Shem (verse 9 RHC v). The 2nd white bull mentioned is Abraham (verse 10 RHC v). The 3rd white bull mentioned is Issac (verse 11 RHC v). But verse 12 shows the end of use of the term bull for men.

“But that bull which was born from him begat a black wild boar and a white sheep; and the former begat many boars, but that sheep begat twelve sheep.”

That third white bull is Issac and he fathers the black wild boar-Esau and the white sheep-Jacob. He fathers 12 sheep which are his 12 sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Gad, Asher, Dan, Naphtali, Joseph and Benjamin.

Here’s the complete version I was talking about (R.H. Charles) Enoch 89:8-12

“Then the water began to run down into these, till the earth became visible; but that vessel settled on the earth, and the darkness retired and light appeared. But that white bull which had become a man came out of that vessel, and the three bulls with him, and one of those three was white like that bull, and one of them was red as blood, and one black: and that white bull departed from them. And they began to bring forth beasts of the field and birds, so that there arose different genera: lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, hyenas, wild boars, foxes, squirrels, swine, falcons, vultures, kites, eagles, and ravens; and among them was born a white bull. And they began to bite one another; but that white bull which was born amongst them begat a wild ass and a white bull with it, and the wild asses multiplied. But that bull which was born from him begat a black wild boar and a white sheep; and the former begat many boars, but that sheep begat twelve sheep.”

The Enoch passage does not imply any kind of bull worship. It’s just telling a story with animals playing the part.

The first Israelite worship arrangement of the Tabernacle did not include the 12 supporting bulls for the water basin. It was just a copper basin with a copper stand. The bull element was still there with the Tabernacle. It was incorporated into the golden Alter of Incense inside the Holy Chamber and the copper Alter of Burnt Offering outside the Tabernacle. They both had bull horns on each corner of their Alter’s.

Golden Alter of Incense within the Holy Chamber: with 4 horns


Copper Alter of Burnt Offerings outside the Tabernacle: with 4 horns


Maybe the horns were just there to make blood come out of the offering but they could have been just normal straight spikes. It looks like it was deliberate for them to be animal horns.

a reply to: lostinspace

Can you please explain your personal views as to why God wanted 12 cows to hold up the Molt Sea.

The Hebrew priests of Solomon’s temple required ritual bathing in pure water before taking bread. The molten sea was built with pure running water into the sea basin made of copper and brass and the priests used these basins for their ritual cleansing as well as for baptism. The twelve Oxen that are holding the molten sea represent the twelve tribes of Jacob [Israel] according to some sources such as the Mormons and are prophetic to represent the twelve disciples of the Christ according to other sources. It does stand to reason that the twelve oxen do represent the tribes of Jacob.

The priests are purified in ritual bathing as well as all of the Israel people who come to the priest for cleansing. The water must not be still water as still water is considered stagnate water so in this respect the molten sea would insure that only pure water be available to the temple. The act of cleansing is upheld by the God of Jacob and the oxen or tribes of Israel are the foundation of this God of Jacob and His covenant with Israel.

Talmud - Mas. Eiruvin 14a
R. Johanan replied: Scripture stated: And he made the ‘molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and the height thereof was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.27 But surely there was [the thickness of] its brim?28 — R. Papa replied: Of its brim, it is written in Scripture [that it was as thin as] the flower of a lily;29 for it is written: And it30 was a handbreadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.31 But there was [still] a fraction at least?28 — When [the measurement of the circumference]32 was computed33 it was that of the inner circumference.34
R. Hiyya taught:35 The sea that Solomon made contained one hundred and fifty ritual baths.36 But consider: How much is [the volume of] a ritual bath? Forty se'ah,37 as it was taught: And he shall bathe . . .
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Talmud - Mas. Eiruvin 14b
in water1 implies, in water that is gathered together;2 All his flesh3 implies, water in which all his body can be immersed;4 and how much is this? [A volume of water of the size of] a cubit by a cubit by a height of three cubits; and the Sages have accordingly estimated that the waters of a ritual bath must measure forty se'ah.5 Now how many [cubic units] were there [in the molten sea]? Five hundred [cubic] cubits.6 From three hundred [cubic cubits are obtained] a hundred [ritual baths],7 and from a hundred and fifty [cubic cubits] fifty [ritual baths are obtained]. [Would not then a volume] of four hundred and fifty [cubic cubits] be enough?8 — These calculations9 [apply only] to a square [shaped tank], while the sea that Solomon made was round.
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Talmud - Mas. Berachoth 2b
From the time that the priests take their ritual bath in order to eat their terumah. (Said R. Judah to him: When the priests take their ritual bath it is still day-time!)11

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WikipediA

The symbolism of the brazen sea is described in detail in the Midrash Tadshe. The sea represented the world; the ten ells of diameter corresponded to the ten Sefirot; and it was round at the top (according to the Talmud passage above cited) as the heavens are round. The depth of the sea was five ells, corresponding to the distance of five hundred years' journey between heaven and earth (compare Chagigah 13a). The band of thirty ells around it corresponded to the Ten Commandments, to the ten words of God at the creation of the world, and to the ten Sefirot: for the world can exist only when the Ten Commandments are observed, and the ten Sefirot as well as the ten words of God were the instruments of the Creation. The two rows of colocynths (knops) below the rim were symbolic of the sun and the moon, while the twelve oxen on which the sea rested represented the zodiac ("mazzalot"). It contained 2,000 baths (cubic measures), for the world will sustain him who keeps the Torah, which was created 2,000 years before the world.[1

Hope this helps to understand -- lol

a reply to: Seede

This makes sense. As many others have pointed out the Oxen represents power, authority and strength. Through God's power the 12 tribes of Israel became a mighty nation.

I was wondering if ATS member Sahabi who mentioned the Aleph pictogram of the Paleo-Hebrew script of the Ox head is on to something. He showed a picture of the evolving Hebrew script with the original one resembling an Ox head.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The letter “Aleph” means Power, Authority and Strength. The letter sounds like “ah” or “eh”. It appears that the first family to be selected to start this new powerful kingdom would get the “ah” attached to their names.

Abram becomes Abr-ah-am.
Sarai becomes Sar-ah.

Abraham and Sarah were both given a special power to start the line of a powerful nation.

a reply to: Sahabi

Text Numbers 23:33 ”From Egypt God (EL) brought them— his strength was like a wild ox!” (International Standard Version) ”God (EL) brings them out of Egypt and is for them like the horns of the wild ox.” (English Standard Version)

I believe you are mistaken in your scriptures locations. I believe you will find your references in Numbers 23:22-- Numbers 24:18 and the explanation in Deuteronomy 33:7 --------------------

As far as a deity "El" being likened to a bull was very common in many peoples from the Sumerians into the Canaanites and was taught to the Hebrews while in Egypt. Nevertheless this practice was highly offensive to the God of Moses and forbidden to have an image in support of the of the invisible Father. [Exodus 20:1-5]---

With this command by the Hebrew, Yahuah EL, it would not stand to have Moses entertain this abomination in Torah. I see nothing to support the idea that temple oxen as being any imagery of God or connection to the God EL. That could not be permitted by the Levitical guardians of Torah and the commands of Yahuah EL. The twelve oxen of the molten sea were the foundation imagery of the twelve sons of Jacob in national Judaism as depicted in the temple.

The Hebrews were nothing but Sumerians as they accepted the covenant of God and being Sumerians had the moon god Nanna/Sin as their frisky calf of the fertile crescent of the moon. Even after their years in Egypt they were also aware of the Egyptian cult Hapi [bull worship] of which many Hebrews became subjected. All of this culminated with the return to the golden calf [moon god Sin] in Mt. Sin'ai covenant by these barbaric Hebrews and was punished by the God of Moses.

originally posted by: lostinspace

This makes sense. As many others have pointed out the Oxen represents power, authority and strength.

If that's the stuff worthy of being worshipped then why didnt everyone worship lions, tigers, rhinos, hippos or even elephants, instead? Note this cow worship thing is as universal a constant as the pyramid, aside from South America where there werent any big hooved critters when they got there.

Ever lived with any cattle? I lived with a couple bulls, balls and all they had, the things were frigging cowards. And stupid. But brazen about busting into my area to eat the plants I didnt want them to. Never managed to touch one of them. Not even at night it wasnt even possible to get within 100' feet of them, and now I doubt there's any truth to so-called "cow tipping". Back before steel fencing materials, barbed wire, herds of cattle would have been the ultimate menace to every little plot of crops the world over. Imagine aherd of hundreds of them passing through late at night eat and stomping and crapping right over everything out in your yard; possibly beginning to eat your grass hut itself! They should have despised them if anything.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

If that's the stuff worthy of being worshipped then why didnt everyone worship lions, tigers, rhinos, hippos or even elephants, instead?

My guess is that it was common with the Hebrews for being a power house with farming. They had horses but those weren’t mentioned as being a symbol of power. Maybe if they had Clydesdales they would have. Also, it could be important because the bull or cow could feed many from its meat. The other animals you mentioned weren’t regarded as clean to the Hebrews after they picked up the law covenant. I mean clean for the purpose of eating.

Note this cow worship thing is as universal a constant as the pyramid,

You’ve got a point about that. I’ve done some research on the Egyptian bull god Hapi, also called Apis. I’ve read Plato’s Critias about the mythological Atlantis which places an importance on bulls. I find it fascinating that a culture that worshipped the sea god Poseidon gives special treatment to the bull. These animals had free range at the central temple of Poseidon. The kings of the Atlantis territory (Gades and so forth) would get together every 5th and 6th year alternately, capture one of these bulls with only staves and nooses and cut its throat over their sacred commandments. These laws were inscribed on a pillar of Orichalcum.

It’s interesting to note that inside the Kaaba in Mecca there are three sacred poles. The circular ritual of going around the Kaaba is reminiscent of the circular pattern of the island of Atlantis. I wonder if bulls used to be allowed around the Kaaba for the same purpose.

www.sacred-texts.com...

The Hebrews would do an annual sprinkling of blood on their sacred commandments on the Day of Atonement. The blood would only hit the cover of the Ark of the Covenant. The 10 commandments inside would not get any blood on them.

Leviticus 16:11-14

“Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.”

www.biblegateway.com...

I loved your experience about being around cattle. I can’t relate. I’ve always been city guy.

a reply to: Seede

Everything to do with the number 12 is rooted in astrology, making it pretty inherent that unless assessing that kind of stuff out through that lens you'll get far far off the path they were such a trip on.

If "God" was involved, this covenant having anything to do with communicating knowledge or edicts or whatever to them, no way the creator of the solar system or universe or whatever would have them worshiping these big lumbering grass eating halfwit herd mind critters.

a reply to: lostinspace

Horses is choice example. Horses and resulting chariots were the True Symbol of POWER by the time of the Hebrews. With a cattle you could plow fields, haul stuff. With horses and chariots you could rule "the world".

But more importantly this cattle obsession goes back to the First Temple: Gobekli Tepe (10,000BC). Its found in virtually every civilization before and after Judea or whatever, until maybe a 1000 years ago.

All the other animals... why didnt the Vikings worship the Elk / Moose... OR CATTLE? That far north the 'right mushrooms' dont grow I dont think, so they always had to rely on types that grew by other strata. I would expect them to have some animism in them though, but they seemed more concerned with the thunder and such.

Animism was always the foundational 'religious instinct' humans the world over have shared, eventually, typically resulting in pyramids, geometric deigns, representing the system, the social hierarchies that the elite always sat atop of.

And other animals had favor, quite often, but the biggest universal constant across the majority of them, to "day 1" as far as we're aware, cattle were the most cherished. Even before proper mass livestock husbandry had become.

The constant with all the other animals we could list (in the entire animal kingdom!) is that holy spaceballs mushrooms did NOT grow from their excrement.

Where if POWER were if the motivator then the Horse would be the true universal constant the world over past 1200BC. But it wasnt in a religious context the way it was the cow. Not that it wasnt the big show in power. The Chinese sure loved them. But I think it was too cold for cow dung fungi of the religious variety to grow there too. I'm not aware that the Chinese worshiped cattle.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Everything to do with the number 12 is rooted in astrology, making it pretty inherent that unless assessing that kind of stuff out through that lens you'll get far far off the path they were such a trip on. If "God" was involved, this covenant having anything to do with communicating knowledge or edicts or whatever to them, no way the creator of the solar system or universe or whatever would have them worshiping these big lumbering grass eating halfwit herd mind critters.

Orthodox Judaism forbids astrology. Their God did not give man the heavens or anything in the earth as a possession. Astrology was taught to the Ubaids [of Noah's days] and in the days of Yered [Jered] by the watcher named Baraqijal. Baraqijal was one of the leaders of the watchers who came down upon Mt. Herman in the fourth century from Adam.

a reply to: Seede

They're told that so the flock isnt able to actually decode the stuff. Not unlike how in early Catholicism they werent even supposed to read the Bible for themselves. Just like magic mushrooms are the big untold secret also required to truly understand the lot of it, which was forgotten and no surprise worshiping cows faded off. Hell in Egypt, maybe 10% of anyone could even be called "literate", where event eh scribes couldnt read all o teh hieroglyphs. Social control has been the foundation of written language since it was invented; its why it was invented, and in those days truly understanding the religious stuff was the most tightly controlled by the elites.

But the astrology encoded throughout the Bible, its brazenly put forth essentially cover to cover. There's whole books on it, some of them available right in Christian book stores. I have a couple. "The Gospel in the Stars" is the name of one that comes to mind. I have another or maybe even two more in there.

But it isnt supposed to be looked at in the proper context of "Astrology", because 'that might lead you down the wrong path' I think the saying is, so in general any talk of it is basically abolished, in general.

But cmon the numbers 7 and 12 being wrapped up in damn near everything. All the 'animal' symbols from astrology being at the heart of like 'every' story.

Only the brainwashed could have some concept of astrology, have this pointed out, and then REFUSE to go look at it with this lens and not start to see it. And thats why this 'nope no astrology' type sentiment is hammered into everyone from the start, why kids are the chosen ones for indoctrination, why people insist on doing literal interpretations of the stories, and so on.

Its all allegories.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I don't think God hate billions of Chinese souls for practising the material way of life in Buddism. They are still God's children, nevertheless. After all, Gautama Buddha doesnt think the state of nothingness ( nirvana ) is a bad thing. I think it more likely, what you sow is what you reap. If Buddhist wish for Nirvana ( permenant second death ), then why should God object their free will?

I must admit that you do have a point to consider in that astrology can also become a religion. Yes, it may very well be that both a god or goddess can be a means of people control but also having the practice of a horoscope directing a life can also be just as silly to most people. I find it much more realistic to connect physicality through terrestrial science than a ghost of inanimate objectivity. How anyone could believe that a a horoscope or numerology or astrology could influence life from untold distances is more mind boggling then having a god. That is in my opinion of course.

The Hebrew God does not object to free will. How could that be possible? If God gives free will to all that He created then He most certainly is not in contention of that which He desires. The purpose of free will is not for the creation to justify but is for the Creator to purpose in His house. The Creator was not in secret as He proclaimed the requirements He gave to His creation to live in His own house. All men have such requirements regardless of what their domain is. It could be a castle or it could be a cave but each man has the freedom to allow or disallow does he not? How then is the Creator to fault in that sense? By each mouth is the judgment of the will of each man.

Do unto others as you want them to do to you.

This world would be a much better place if everyone followed that guiding principle. You're free to ignore it but people around you will suffer if you don't apply it.