A man with a '‘Do Not Resuscitate’ tattoo was unconscious Doctors were unsure what to do.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: FredT

As far as the database it no different than one of those medic alert bracelets

It' WAY different. A Med-alert bracelet is a piece of metal that you buy. There is no database. There is no record. There is no maintenance of the information, no cost. To keep a nationwide database would be very very expensive.

True, but its still a way of disseminating information in a easy to use and find (baring some sort of limb detachment mind you) and would clue the providers to the need of quickly checking the notional national database

originally posted by: FredT

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: FredT

As far as the database it no different than one of those medic alert bracelets

It' WAY different. A Med-alert bracelet is a piece of metal that you buy. There is no database. There is no record. There is no maintenance of the information, no cost. To keep a nationwide database would be very very expensive.

True, but its still a way of disseminating information in a easy to use and find (baring some sort of limb detachment mind you) and would clue the providers to the need of quickly checking the notional national database

So who is going to pay for it? Do you realize the immensity of what you are proposing here? This is not trivial.

originally posted by: schuyler
So who is going to pay for it? Do you realize the immensity of what you are proposing here? This is not trivial.

Yes, but for may of us its already on our phones and with a tweek and a database (preferably not the one they used when obamacare rolled out) it could be workable. Given all of the databases the government has, one more would not be prohibitively expensive. Not everyone will be in it. Only people with active DNR's

Iphone has a medical ID already Set up your Medical ID in the Health app on your iPhone that is accessible from the lock screen and it could be easily modified to be compliant with whatever laws are required to make a DNR official

"Yes, but" does not cut it. This is immense. You'd never get all the special interests to agree. Opposition would be vocal. Dream on.

originally posted by: schuyler
"Yes, but" does not cut it. This is immense. You'd never get all the special interests to agree. Opposition would be vocal. Dream on.

Yeah can't argue with that, but dream is what we do. Until then people are going to get resuscitated unless they have the supporting documentation.

a reply to: FredT

I see the tattoo to be a permanent sticky note of which can't be anything more than a reminder of one's wishes.

People have the freedom to do whatever they wish with their issued meat sack, and that particular person went so far as to take the added measure of the tattoo. It would be a self serving service if a database for such things were created... and I am sick and tired of people wanting to alter the laws and regulations to fit their personal wishes.

The department of redundancy department is hiring tattoo artists I hear. The last artist got fired for permanently inking tattoos of DNR death warrants on people's back that wanted to get a simple #13 on their shoulder blade. Oops, an honest mistake I guess... at least the way someone wishes to die elsewhere was honored.

a reply to: hiddenNZ

To each their own... it's all freedoms of choice.

And, Chick Fil-A won't sell chicken on Sundays because of Jesus... it doesn't accomplish much beyond self satisfaction. I'd always encourage all people to do what makes them feel content with the choice.

The man died because they seen the tattoo and checked the state records before treatment. The tattoo seemingly worked for that man, and his money was well spent. The evidence shows that there are tattoo artists willing to do it, since we're talking about it here...

He underlined not, sounds legit to me, if he got it while drunk and regerted it he could of added sike to clear it up

a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

I got that... good one!

Hard, interesting question. Thanks to OP for sharing.

Now, i am not a law expert nor a doctor. But if i was a doctor and trying to help a man with this kind of a tattoo, i think there are only bad choices available. 1) Resuscitate, the patient regains his health and beats me up. 2) Do not resuscitate and face all sorts of legal trouble, isn't there some kind of an oath doctors make, to protect all life or something like that?

I would resuscitate.

a reply to: ttobban

Yeah heaps of artists have differing artistic morals. I have been in a motorcycle club,tattooed in jail,and still havnt done hands,faces or DNR tattoos so I've met a fairly wide range of people,and I'd still not tattoo "just let me die" on anyone.

a reply to: Finspiracy

I would do the same I suppose.

I'm supposed to wear a med-alert bracelet of some sort. I'm a fuzzy guy, not gorilla fuzzy, but... you get the idea.

Those metal bracelets tug on hair like none other, so I went and had a medical bracelet tattooed on my arm.

Certainly nothing as insane as a DNR tattoo, but it works. Pretty hard to miss, rather straight forward too..

Bonus here is, I can't forget to wear it when I go out for the day..

On the OP's dude, thats not a legit way of going about that, it leaves to much to question but it is a growing popularity type thing as well. Medical alert, etc type tattoos are picking up in commonality.

So please, those of you who are First Responders, keep an eye out for them, they're there to help you save us.

originally posted by: FredT
Doctors in an emergency room in Florida were confronted with a problem with an unconscious and deteriorating patient: He had a "do not resuscitate" tattoo on his chest. Someone from the ethics department ruled that they should honor the request. They later found the patients official request

This however, brings with it alot of questions IMHO. A DNR requires paperwork and signatures etc. It is in many ways a legal document. If I ran into such a tattoo without paperwork, I think I would resuscitate that patient if they were unresponsive and no family was about. Do you want to be wrong? Was that just a mistake from a drunken night in Ixtapa? Anybody can write anything they want on their bodies, should that be an accepted standard?

The articles on this point out a lack of clearly defined DNR standards etc.

We should create a national database for DNR's. Tattoos should have a QR code perhaps that would link to a database that EMS and ED/ER people could scan and get the relevant information.

Thoughts?

www.miamiherald.com...

What if he was victim to someone unknown to him, tattooing that on him?
Thaaaaats not cool for him If that's not his plan...

a reply to: FredT

Unless that document is readily accessible, either on the person (Most people have a med alert bracelet with the info and contact for next of kin or power of attorney who can provide a DNR, or carry a copy on them or in their vehicle, etc.), or on file at the facility, they code and they're getting resuscitated. A tattoo is not going to suffice.

Because it is a fact that people tattoo some bizarre # on their bodies...it's not within the scope of practice of emergency medical personnel to interpret body art in a life or death scenario. If he wasn't DNR and they didn't code him because of a tattoo and he died needlessly, that's medical malpractice, wrongful death and possibly even criminal charges.

Medical personnel are required to ask about a DNR if the patient or family are able to answer. They are not required to do detective work to locate one...it is the responsibility of the individual to make such a crucial document easily accessible in the event that a decision has to be made medically on their behalf. If there is none and the patient is unresponsive and codes, heroic measures are initiated.

A family member could scream all day that they have empirical knowledge that the patient is a DNR, but unless that document is provided, they will be ignored. And there is good historical reason for that, despite attempts to paint physicians as being cold and callous in situations like those.

It would suck tremendously to be lying there on the brink of death, unable to respond, and hear your dear loved one telling the medical staff that it's OK to go ahead and let you die because you told her at a family gathering once that you didn't want to be resuscitated if you were dying. That type of scenario happens more often than most people would like to think about. There are definite reasons why it needs to be made clear what the actual wishes are of the person at death's door...and if that's not possible, ask him after you save his life.

Nope, tats are not documentation. But it's not a bad idea...better than an easily misplaced piece of paper. Just make sure it's standardized and make sure it's for keeps...too many possible pitfalls I think, though. It's a morbid topic, but if I were responding to a code and all there was in the way of a DNR was a questionable tattoo, sorry buddy...you're getting resuscitated. Not worth it to take the chance on it being legit.

originally posted by: FredT

...They later found the patients official request...

what the hell is even the point of the official paperwork for do not resuscitate if they only ever find it AFTER deciding to resuscitate, it makes sense with that being the case to have it tattooed on the chest if you want to ensure they dont resuscitate you before they find the paperwork.

tattoos should be honored. they choose the tattoo they choose its meaning they choose its consequence.

i cant believe this is even being argued, as if we need to find some red tape reasons to NOT honor someones wishes....

a reply to: hiddenNZ

I couldn't agree more, and I'd likely choose the same standards if I was in your profession. My brother is a tattoo artist as well, and it taught me a lot about the sensitive moral decisions that tattoo artist must make on behalf of their clients. It seemed that the type of design on poor canvas' of stretched and older skin were more of an issue for my brother than the moral dilemmas that were avoided.

I have never been a fan of laws and regulations to meet the requests/wishes of a few citizens. People are doing stupid stuff each and every day, and as long as their stuff if not made to have a direct influence on the health and safety of other citizens I just simply don't care anymore what people choose for themselves. It's a free country... people should be able to do to themselves whatever they wish... but those wishes shouldn't come at the expenses and burdens to tax payers.

If someone wants to die upon falling unconscious, and they had a DNR tattoo that didn't see it's way to purpose... then get up, shake it off, and go for round two. This bending each and every faction of a free countries democracies to fit a few self serving preferences in life is a freaking joke.

This DNR database idea is a perfect example fo what I'm talking about... a waste to please a few of the millions. If one of the 100's of waste programs can fit the parameters to make it happen, then use one of those programs free of charge to make it happen. Notice how the database was mentioned to be made without connecting existing programs that monitor people in various ways??? That's my point, the idea is so stupid that it might have some credibility if a way to get it done that's already available were offered. No, that's not what happened here... it was a proposal of which had an end result that seemed satisfactory, but offers little to no offer of how to achieve it properly... it's just a "I want it to stick for all, and the free world must adopt my free thought principles.''

I agree with you, and I am thankful that there are tattoo artists out there that lessen the chances of idiots like this trying to turn tattoos into legal binding agreements. The DNR database... I will accept it if all convicted pedophiles are forced to get a giant bold 'X' on their forehead. I want to know who the people to fear are... create a database for those people and mark their personal being. I could care less to pay for someone's preferred way of dying.

Maybe we should just link the sex offenders list with the DNR list, so common citizens are responsible for making certain a sex offender doesn't live near them. There's a convicted pedophile that moved onto our block... a block of 30+ grade schooler's running all over the street. That pedophile didn't have to warn all their new neighbors that they were around now... they should have a giant 'X' on their forehead to tell all pedophiles what happens when you violate a child's innocence. Sure, let's just circumvent a scenario like this, and accommodate all the DNR's that keep the chances of a fantasy death thriving.

Let's DNR all pedophiles, then we can come back and talk about how to allow people the path to die of which they choose.

Sorry for the rant... I just can't believe that this idea was offered up with the concept of 'Deny Ignorance' in mind. I know it wasn't your idea, and it's kind of even more embarrassing coming from a 'Super Mod'. Aren't the mods supposed to be keeping the 'Deny ignorance' aspects alive here? Shouldn't mods have to run their threads through moderation of their own prior to entry? I look more and more forward to getting off this site each day... it's fallen off a cliff with all these directional engagements that create nothing but divide.

a reply to: NobodiesNormal

This guy did it right... he got the tattoo to support the legal framework of the official DNR order. I would't say the tattoo is worth anything more than to serve as a reminder to medical professional to check the legal records. This man likely was aware that medical professionals make mistakes too... he was simply hoping to lessen the chance of a mistake.

Get the tattoo all you want, nobody is arguing the wishes of the these DNR tattoo wearers. The dilemma is that a tattoo is not and never will be a binding legal contract. Get a chip inserted if you want or something, but the 'regret' aspects of tattoos will NEVER EVER allow for a tattoo to be worth anything more than a reminder. It's what tattoos do now... they display images of what people PREFER. Now, when preference can somehow over value actualities, then we can talk about this asinine idea.

I feel that people aren't analyzing all angles of this, and it's starting to explain why we are in so many predicaments in current times. So, what happens to the poster that has a wrist tattoo that indicates their medical condition ends up losing their arm in a boating accident?

Look, there is already a DNR program in place. Why do people not ever try to fix an implemented system, and instead try to create an even bigger sea of rules and regulations? It's not that much more than we waste already I read... c'mon get real. Stop adding programs that disregard the programs of which are already in place. Or at least close the failing programs before adding another one that will likely fail.

The U.S. is a spoiled country, and these type of discussions only feed this stereotype further.

Suck it up people... we're all going to die in any one of 100's of ways. Mankind didn't get to choose their death entry angles in times of past, so what makes people think we're so special as 21st century Americans?

Face it... this conversation/thread does not happen in ANY OTHER country but the U.S.A.! I hope people in support of this database idea can see themselves for how superficial this sounds?

Be the change you want people... stop expecting all other citizens to pick up extra awareness' of what new self serving ideas you wish to implement.

originally posted by: FredT

Thoughts?

I could tattoo a birth certificate on my chest. But I don't see the DMV accepting it.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I know, I wrote a prenup on toilet paper and I'm still fighting the legal battles of credibility.

Don't ask... it supposed to stay in Vegas, but that was a lie too.