The Ultimate Battle of the Sexes

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: InTheLight
Yet, we can envision and philosophize social improvements and then take action to hopefully make the changes that effect equality for all.

Yes, you can envision and philosophize social improvements, but you cannot achieve social improvements without forcing people to change the way they think just because the current way they do think is determined by you to be wrong or threatening. You are actually advocating for the use of a type of mind control technique that ought to be used on people (without their informed consent) who do not share the same worldview as you do you.

And the "equality for all' that you speak of is the promotion of equality of outcome regardless of if there was an equality of opportunity to begin with. Unlike myself, who argues for an equality of opportunity to begin with and doesn't expect this to automatically lead to an equality of outcome.

"Unite and conquer" indeed! Unless you oppose our views, which in that case you ought to be mind controlled without us needing your informed consent first into accepting our worldview...agree or go to hell! Consequence: happiness and equality for all!"

The societal programming to continue stereotyping of what a man is suppose to be, is insidious mind control...

The reality is, as men, we’re struggling. We’re depressed and we don’t know where to turn. Suicide is the single biggest killer of men between the ages of 21 and 45 in this country.

We are our own biggest threat. As a gender, we are in crisis: at the root of this crisis is this idea that, as men, we have to conform to stale and damaging expectations of what it means to conform to this stereotype. By forcing ourselves to abide by ridiculous guidelines, we’re hurting ourselves and those around us.

The simple fact is that by embracing feminism, by empowering women, by welcoming equality, men will liberate themselves from the harmful attitudes that are preventing them from being who they really are. Embracing egalitarian attitudes means that gender roles can be re-defined, or abandoned altogether, which can only be a benefit to the many men suffering because they do not feel “manly” enough.

As men, we have to stand up to the behaviour we know is wrong, but we have to do it together. We have to stand side by side with our mothers, sisters, cousins, aunties, friends, girlfriends and wives and we have to say, we will fight with you, for your sake and ours.

I may well be accused of mansplaining or taking a women’s issue and making it about men but the reality is gender equality is impossible without men being brought to the table. But while we have a public conception that feminism is anti-men, we will never be able to truly challenge the injustice of outdated gender roles that are hurting so many and fuelling a masculinity crisis that is ending, for many, in suicide.

www.independent.co.uk...

I invite you to look to the root of our problems then work together to understand it, allay fears, then change the paradigm through protest, getting the message out via media, have new laws enacted, and then work on our political and societal framework which is very much cracked.

a reply to: InTheLight

If you expect me to join you so we can "work together" after ignoring all the effort I have placed into this thread, if you cannot even acknowledge some of the problems I mentioned, cannot take into account some of my very valid criticisms of feminism and STILL have the audacity to link me to the article you just have as means for both of our problems to be resolved, then my answer is NO. I will NOT agree that "the patriarchy" can explain all the gender issues and inequality that exists.

Unless feminism is reformed in a significant manner then YOU and ME will be on opposite sides of the fence. Which ultimately for me is not such a bad thing: while I will have to put up with continual trivial whining from feminists and will continue to fight for a better focus on issues affecting males, I do not have to feel guilty about the millions of WOMEN suffering around the world whose plight will remain as long as the truly abysmal efforts of Western feminists to use their ACTUAL privilege as Western citizens to help WOMEN who do not share the same rights and freedoms as it continues.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: InTheLight

If you expect me to join you so we can "work together" after ignoring all the effort I have placed into this thread, if you cannot even acknowledge some of the problems I mentioned, cannot take into account some of my very valid criticisms of feminism and STILL have the audacity to link me to the article you just have as means for both of our problems to be resolved, then my answer is NO. I will NOT agree that "the patriarchy" can explain all the gender issues and inequality that exists.

Unless feminism is reformed in a significant manner then YOU and ME will be on opposite sides of the fence. Which ultimately for me is not such a bad thing: while I will have to put up with continual whining from feminists, I do not have to feel guilty about the millions of WOMEN suffering around the world whose plight will remain as long as the truly abysmal efforts of Western feminists to use their ACTUAL privilege as Western citizens to help WOMEN who do not share the same rights and freedoms and achieve better lives for them.

I have not suggested you should feel guilty, rather I suggested you realize that by men joining in the struggles of the women all around the world in their lives and stepping up to help change their inequalities, they actually are changing the world for the betterment of all genders because what needs to be addressed is the underlying continuing systematic programming that does not keep up with emerging societal changes due to many factors, and the identification of injustices.

Feminism is ever-evolving and is inclusive, so if you choose to keep a divisive stance and hold tightly onto your fear, that, of course, is your free choice, but the only whining I can see is from you and this thread serves no useful purpose to further men's struggles.

a reply to: Dark Ghost
No that wasn't it at all, they assumed I would need a lot of time off work while I was pregnant, I had 3 days off, the man they bought into replace me had 6weeks off in the same time period.

It really is a shame I have to go through such effort to do what I am about to do,

you see as soon as i read this first sentence i didnt een bother reading the rest. you came across as condescending (even if that wasnt our aim)
you seem to have your own ideas and you clearly dont want a debate but for everyone else to go ''you know your right i was wrong all along'' so for this reason i cant be bothered to even try and discuss your concerns

originally posted by: InTheLight
I have not suggested you should feel guilty, rather I suggested you realize that by men joining in the struggles of the women all around the world in their lives and stepping up to help change their inequalities, they actually are changing the world for the betterment of all genders because what needs to be addressed is the underlying continuing systematic programming that does not keep up with emerging societal changes due to many factors, and the identification of injustices.

I think you missed the key point I was making in my last reply, so I will repeat it again: we can continue to argue in the West about cat-calling, man-spreading and "rape culture" over and over again, we can go back and forth, but until Western feminists use most of their power to alter the lives of women not in the West, those women WILL continue to suffer be oppressed and never know freedom.

You are suggestion we revamp ALL societies all over the world to conform with your feminist views. This will NOT happen. If that is your goal, you are fighting a losing battle. Not everyone thinks like you and agrees with your views. Not everyone thinks your version of equality and your war on societal programming are top priorities.

Accept what was just written and change, or refuse and continue in a losing battle you CANNOT win.

Feminism is ever-evolving and is inclusive, so if you choose to keep a divisive stance and hold tightly onto your fear, that, of course, is your free choice, but the only whining I can see is from you and this thread serves no useful purpose to further men's struggles.

I have demonstrated rather clearly on more than one occasion that I do not fear feminist ideology itself, my actual fear is that it will be used AGAIN in the future to effect political changes that are NOT in the best interests of (even sometimes totally disregarding whether it will negatively affect) boys and men OR the promotion of cohesion between the genders.

Are you willing to concede anything I have just said? Or do I just simply "not see" what feminism really is trying to achieve?

originally posted by: kerrichin
you see as soon as i read this first sentence i didnt een bother reading the rest. you came across as condescending (even if that wasnt our aim)
you seem to have your own ideas and you clearly dont want a debate but for everyone else to go ''you know your right i was wrong all along'' so for this reason i cant be bothered to even try and discuss your concerns

How very immature and juvenile of you. You missed out on a LOT of information that you WOULD have gained from reading. But obviously, taking offence at my "supposed" condensation was more important than the topic at hand. I really do feel sorry for you, how can such a person not be willing to swallow their pride and move on when there is so much at stake for everyone else?

If you "can't be bothered to even try" because you get triggered by the way something comes across on an internet chat board, then please do not discuss this issue any further with me. You can keep sticking with your feminist cronies and starring each others' post without even reading the content, knowing you only want to fight and not resolve anything.

Farewell.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Do you mean that I should not dismiss your opinion as you do mine?

originally posted by: InTheLight
Do you mean that I should not dismiss your opinion as you do mine?

Please stop misrepresenting my position. If you are unclear about what my position actually is then read over the opening post again, or read my replies after that up until this point.

I have not dismissed your opinion. I have read over your replies in full and responded to each one with what I feel are valid criticisms which you never seem to address. You just keep presenting alternative ways for me to try and agree with you.

Are you prepared to move on? If not, don't bother replying to me specifically. You are welcome to stay in this thread and express your views, but if we continue arguing over trivial details then the purpose of the thread is lost and I will not take active part in making that a reality.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: InTheLight
Do you mean that I should not dismiss your opinion as you do mine?

Please stop misrepresenting my position. If you are unclear about what my position actually is then read over the opening post again, or read my replies after that up until this point.

I have not dismissed your opinion. I have read over your replies in full and responded to each one with what I feel are valid criticisms which you never seem to address. You just keep presenting alternative ways for me to try and agree with you.

Are you prepared to move on? If not, don't bother replying to me specifically. You are welcome to stay in this thread and express your views, but if we continue arguing over trivial details then purpose of the thread is lost and I will not take active part in that.

The purpose of this thread was lost on many after reading the OP. Did you read the others' replies to you?

originally posted by: InTheLight
The purpose of this thread was lost on many after reading the OP. Did you read the others' replies to you?

If you are being sincere about what you just wrote, then I think we are done. I wish you all the best and hope you can one day at least understand why feminism either needs an urgent reformation, or admit that it is no longer necessary or beneficial for society as a whole in Western countries.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: InTheLight
The purpose of this thread was lost on many after reading the OP. Did you read the others' replies to you?

If you are being sincere about what you just wrote, then I think we are done. I wish you all the best and hope you can one day at least understand why feminism either needs an urgent reformation, or admit that it is no longer necessary or beneficial for society as a whole in Western countries.

Rather, I believe your thread is done.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
No that wasn't it at all, they assumed I would need a lot of time off work while I was pregnant, I had 3 days off, the man they bought into replace me had 6weeks off in the same time period.

If what you have described is true, then I am on your side and would even represent you if I were a lawyer and lived in your city. That is unjust and worthy of a lawsuit if you were assumed to be doing something you did not actually yet do. I don't know how long ago that event happened and I hope you were able to get some type of closure from it.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Rather, I believe your thread is done.

Even if it is done, I feel happy that I tried my best. I probably exposed many more people to this significant topic than I was initially expecting. Stars and Flags don't indicate how many times an opening post or any following pages have been viewed or viewed favourably. That this thread is still being visited by members over a week since it was first posted, shows there is at least some interest in it.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: InTheLight
Rather, I believe your thread is done.

Even if it is done, I feel happy that I tried my best. I probably exposed many more people to this significant topic than I was initially expecting. Stars and Flags don't indicate how many times an opening post or any following pages have been viewed or viewed favourably. That this thread is still being visited by members over a week since it was first posted, shows there is at least some interest in it.

Good luck and I hope you find the truth.