France's 75% Super Tax quietly comes to an end...

originally posted by: ownbestenemy
a reply to: SearchLightsInc

There is a marked difference between patriotic taxation, such as which many nations faced after (and during) conflict and that during relative peace. If one knows their taxes are going to help rebuild a nation that was attacked and deeply destroyed, they tend to be willing; as evident in what you write.

On the other hand, taxing to tax for revenue, to sustain and shift wealth in order to prop up systems that obviously require the "rich" to pay, while allowing those who do not make as much, receive; that system is broken and cannot sustain.

The rich are every part of society as are the poor. With great power comes great responsibility. Money is power. The wealthy have only benefited from such systems as FREE healthcare, affordable housing and welfare safety net. It created a workforce that were happy to work hard in order to live decently. It supplied them with a HEALTHY workforce and most of all, it looked after those who could not work due to ill health/hard times, which kept crime low.

Part of the trouble with WEALTHY people (notice i dont say rich) is that they dont really have a national identity, they're globetrotters and the world is their oyster - Why should they pledge loyalty to any tax system when they're constantly moving around?

They just dont "get it" and so they use as many tax avoidance schemes as they're accountants can find to both maintain and increase their wealth at the very expense of the inhabitants of the world that keep it turning.

It HAS to change.

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc
The rich are every part of society as are the poor. With great power comes great responsibility. Money is power. The wealthy have only benefited from such systems as FREE healthcare, affordable housing and welfare safety net.

We are talking about two different systems, but I guarantee that there is no such thing as "free" anything. All pay in, and in the case of the United States, while the "poorer" do pay via income tax withholding, their take at the end of the year ends up a negative tax return, ie., they receive more than they put into the system.

It created a workforce that were happy to work hard in order to live decently. It supplied them with a HEALTHY workforce and most of all, it looked after those who could not work due to ill health/hard times, which kept crime low.

Quantify how "it", which I assume you mean taxing the wealthy, has created such an environment. I think you are making a lot of assumptions on your above statement.

Part of the trouble with WEALTHY people (notice i dont say rich) is that they dont really have a national identity, they're globetrotters and the world is their oyster - Why should they pledge loyalty to any tax system when they're constantly moving around?

I think for some, you are correct. For majority, I do not. Currently in the States, I am approaching that "you are wealthy" marker and have, through my numerous years, paid into the system only to see my taxes squandered on pet projects and poorly ran social programs. I do not see how I should be held more accountable to the system more than others just because I have risen the ladder.

They just dont "get it" and so they use as many tax avoidance schemes as they're accountants can find to both maintain and increase their wealth at the very expense of the inhabitants of the world that keep it turning.

It HAS to change.

I agree it does need to change. As others suggested, flatten the tax (or other ideas such as a consumption based tax). I do believe that many do "get it" and even so they use the various loopholes offered; heck, I do it too (just at a much lesser extent). Loopholes though don't necessarily mean they are doing so at the expense of everyone else, though many of them do.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I was wondering what people think of a tax like this?

Punitively high taxation rates are an inherently unfair and are rooted in the politics of envy.
All punitive taxation does is appease those people who like to "shaft the rich", but the rich just find ways to avoid. Best that the rich don't avoid tax, but pay the same proportionately as everyone else.
Equality is the best approach.
Regards

I don't see the 'politics of envy' as the driving force in current tax theory. Most Western countries currently operate what is called a 'progressive' tax system. That means the more money you make, the higher tax you pay on it. Of course the 75% in France was an extreme to this system, but not too much so. Many countries currently tax at 50% - 60% on money over $200,000 or so (different in each country of course). This tax system has been in place for a very long time and wasn't based on Envy when implemented (from what I've read) but was an honest attempt to take more from people that would not suffer as much from losing that money. In other words, they didn't want to burden poor people with even more money problems.

A flat tax removes the basic theory behind the current tax system. Of course the rich would love to see a flat tax system because they pay less. No surprise that Russia, run by Oligarchs, has a flat tax system. This is the equality system.

Lots of pros and cons to each system of course.

originally posted by: nerbot
a reply to: noeltrotsky
Something France needs to do (but won't) is get the population to WORK HARDER AND LONGER HOURS.
They also need to make it easier to be self employed.
Did you know the word "entrepreneur", although french, is only used as a label for an employment system that limits people to a single activity (auto-entrepreneur). Stoopid!

I personally don't think LONGER and HARDER are solutions for a modern world. That's what they did in the industrial revolution with kids working as well.
I think working more efficiently is the key. Productivity the solution.

You are very right about self employment restrictions in France. It is brutal to try to earn a living in a small corner business. Personally I think much of the countries growth problems are linked to this issue. Massive regulations and small fees for every little thing kill these small business. Death by a thousand cuts.

It should have been 75% of anything you have not spent by the end of the year. People hoarding money is what stalls the economy. Governments over taxing also stalls the economy. The point of money is a means of exchange, not to mass wealth.

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc
One of most prosperous periods of time in recent history was post world war 2 when the wealthy occupants of the uk were being taxed upwards of 70% of their annual income.
We rebuild a country, created the NHS, welfare safety net and creates affordable housing. Jobs were plentiful, people were happy and secure after so much destruction.
Taxing the wealthy works.

Excellent example! I saddly haven't learnt much about the after war period of reconstruction. I think how taxes are used is critical to justifying a very high tax rate. Like others have posted, if it's just to maintain current government size and spending then people are against it. If the high taxes build something specific and useful people aren't against it. I wouldn't be surprised if some enlightened government eventually caught on and linked additional taxes on the wealthy to a specific national project with an end date to those taxes at completion.

We only need a fair tax. With no loopholes. For rich or bushiness. ( Flat tax ) Get rid of all the tax codes. Everyone pays the same % on each dollar period. As this happens the percentage can be lowered as revenue will increase. The poor will have more money, buy more products and the rich will get some back. Supply and demand create jobs. Supply of money to the majority means more spending. As they live pay check to paycheck. That sale of products Creates more jobs and more revenue for corps and gov. In the long term future as population expands beyond the ability to maintain it may need to be changed again.

originally posted by: roth1
We only need a fair tax. With no loopholes. For rich or bushiness. ( Flat tax ) Get rid of all the tax codes. Everyone pays the same % on each dollar period. As this happens the percentage can be lowered as revenue will increase. The poor will have more money, buy more products and the rich will get some back. Supply and demand create jobs. Supply of money to the majority means more spending. As they live pay check to paycheck. That sale of products Creates more jobs and more revenue for corps and gov. In the long term future as population expands beyond the ability to maintain it may need to be changed again.

Under a flat tax system the poor do not have more money. Because the progressively higher tax system is gone some tax revenues gained by the higher tax rates is lost. This tax revenue has to be replaced to balance the budget. This requires the flat tax to either tax more things or have a higher rate than the poor were initially paying.

When you start getting into 'supply and demand' and more spending and yada yada it gets very complicated. Bottom line is if the government is spending the same after the tax change then they need to get the same from the new tax as they got from the old tax. You don't expect any boost in the economy in that situation.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
The point of money is a means of exchange, not to mass wealth.

Money is not only a means of exchange, it is also a store of liquid assets and thus, wealth. Money is a critical component of wealth storage actually, due to it's very liquid nature (ease of use). Clearly not all wealth is stored in money.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
The point of money is a means of exchange, not to mass wealth.

Money is not only a means of exchange, it is also a store of liquid assets and thus, wealth. Money is a critical component of wealth storage actually, due to it's very liquid nature (ease of use). Clearly not all wealth is stored in money.

You would store your wealth in CASH!!

That is crazy talk. Ask the Russians.

It's a smart move on the part of the French to test the loyalty of their upper class but really, that's a huge bite in the wallet.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
In a brave move the French almost 2 years ago implemented a 75% tax on personal earnings over $1 million. The promise of this 'Super-Tax' helped Hollande beat out Sarkozy for the presidency but it didn't go over well with the super rich. Some moved out of the country while others quietly made arrangements with their employer to lower salaries now and recover losses after 2 years when the Super Tax expired.

Well the tax is about to expire and won't be renewed. A brave experiment to reverse the ever growing income inequality in this world ends in failure. The super rich once again bend Democracy to their whim.

www.businessinsider.com...

I was wondering what people think of a tax like this? Possibly it should be implemented in many democratic countries at the same time so the super rich can't run and hide? Or should Democracy just give up trying to control income inequality?

I consider government and taxes like a casino. They're only in it for themselves.

These are the countries that have a flat tax, which ironically keeps increasing.

en.wikipedia.org...
The countries that have recently reintroduced flat taxes have done so largely in the hope of boosting economic growth. The Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have had flat taxes of 24%, 25% and 33% respectively with a tax exempt amount, since the mid-1990s. On 1 January 2001, a 13% flat tax on personal income took effect in Russia. Ukraine followed Russia with a 13% flat tax in 2003, which later increased to 15% in 2007. Slovakia introduced a 19% flat tax on most taxes (that is, on corporate and personal income, for VAT, etc., almost without exceptions) in 2004. Romania introduced a 16% flat tax on personal income and corporate profit on 1 January 2005. Macedonia introduced a 12% flat tax on personal income and corporate profit on 1 January 2007 and promised to cut it to 10% in 2008.[21] Albania has implemented a 10% flat tax from 2008.[22] Bulgaria applies flat tax rate of 10% for corporate profits and personal income tax since 2008.[23]

In SC, USA we pay income state and federal taxes, sales taxes, property taxes on houses, car taxes at time of purchase and then annually for license plates, boat and trailer taxes, airplane taxes, there are toll roads, late library book fees , water, electric and sewer taxes. Normal working people just feel broke all the time. They do not garnish wages here so the African American population that rents houses really take advantage of the home owners in not paying rent and tearing up the property. I guess with the current President we are experiencing Socialism. What is the point of working so hard when those who are irresponsible expect someone to hand it all over for free? Such as Food stamps, health care, Obama cell phones, housing vouchers, welfare , free student lunches, etc... I am amazed there are people who are rich.

The rich should pay mathematically in proportion to what the normal person pays out. Put it all on a pie chart graph.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

If i considered the tax using the "veil of ignorance" test concept (where i don't know anyones earning potential later in life, and focus more on creating a fair/equitable system today), it stinks. 75%.....that really sucks. Enough so that I would be happy to join the riots in the streets, were any super rich going to actually riot.

Why does it suck? Well, on the surface (within the entire veil of ignorance concept) it is unfair. But even more, it is nothing but mob rule. The minority (the wealthy) had their assets seized by the majority. To be honest, it makes France no better than the Nazi's, who also like to target a minority group to steal belongings from.

Even more, however, is that people created all manner of stop gaps to reduce their tax burden. The tax created a system that had to use work arounds.

I see no value in a tax system like that. But if the French want to do it, let them. Its their country they are ruining (again).

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
The point of money is a means of exchange, not to mass wealth.

Money is not only a means of exchange, it is also a store of liquid assets and thus, wealth. Money is a critical component of wealth storage actually, due to it's very liquid nature (ease of use). Clearly not all wealth is stored in money.

No one stores large amounts of cash. Cash rots in the bank as inflation chews away at it like a book worm.

Sure, maybe a really wealthy person will keep cash in a bank, but mostly only to cover bonds or other agreements (like a signed agreement to keep 2 payrolls worth of cash on hand so the company managing your asset do not have to take on the risk of missed payrolls, which is a federal crime).

But for the most part, overwhelmingly so, the cash is invested. Cash is mean to circulate constantly, with stores of wealth being maintained in properties, securities, etc. Its all devised so that cash flows back out into circulation. When that stops, you have stagnation.

The US tax rate is currently 7th highest in the world....
en.wikipedia.org...

So France isn't wildly out of line with many other countries in the world. Of course any discussion of taxes revolves around lowering them.

originally posted by: StoutBroux
I consider government and taxes like a casino. They're only in it for themselves.
These are the countries that have a flat tax, which ironically keeps increasing.

Very true!

It is ironic that flat tax systems keep increasing, but by responses on the thread I can see why they are growing. However with the growing discussion around inequality I can see these two ideas clashing.

What you could do, as mentioned previously, is tax 'wealth' each year. So a flat tax on income and a different flat tax on wealth, especially forms that are 'useless' and not helping society. I can imagine all the double taxation screaming already...but in truth your double and more taxed already.

It's very simple, you pay the taxes you demand them lowered. You take the taxes then you demand them raised. I wonder what they call a 100% tax.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The US tax rate is currently 7th highest in the world....
en.wikipedia.org...

So France isn't wildly out of line with many other countries in the world. Of course any discussion of taxes revolves around lowering them.