Thus Spoke Zarathustra

The last few days I have been reading 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' by Friedrich Nietszche. I just finished part one, did a bit of writing, and figured why not post it. In one part he makes the point that all value-systems whatsoever are man-made. They were not received or revealed from some higher external power, they were made by man. It is in this way in that man is a creator. The possibilities of evaluation. He says time and time again to be a creator. So, this creative power which he exhorts us to use, is in a way just a use of our mind's potential for giving meaning and value to things. In a way, this appears to be opposite of common spiritual advice. But, I think we need to look into the meaning of this general idea of 'evaluation.' I think there is a distinction which is implied. Evaluate internally. See, think, speak, and act through these internally created lenses. Yet at the same time, don't do it as a means of judging externally. Don't 'judge' people and things in the common use of the word, as some sort of moral or at least good-to-bad scale, but establish an internal view and standard which is arrived at through genuine honesty with one's self, and held with conviction.

"...and may the value of all things be fixed anew by you."
"There are a thousand paths that have never yet been trodden, a thousand forms of health and hidden islands of life. Man and man's earth are still unexhausted and undiscovered."

He says at one point, that we should all find our virtue, but that everyone's virtue is different. I think 'virtue' here implies, in part, living up to your own personal idea of greatness(for lack of a better word). Your own uniqueness, that which you yourself like and admire, you be. The name of this chapter, which goes on about finding your own personal value system, is called 'of the Bestowing Virtue.' Perhaps this alludes to the idea that we should find our own way, and also help others to find their own way. This is all really consistent with the idea of Thelema, for whoever is familiar.

So, part of the practical application of the idea, I think, is to totally detach from all existing value-systems, and all pre-packaged conceptions or descriptions of the world. And then from there to be totally honest and genuine with oneself, and through this honestly and genuineness getting to know and love yourself, and your own way of giving meaning and value to things. Finding your own Way, unconditioned and uncompromised. And as you uncover this value-system and self-styled idea of 'greatness,' you let it consume your whole being.

Wisdom.

Very nice summary well done... you will love the rest.
I am obsessed with Nietzsche's work
You should also read ''the Gay Science'' and ''Human, all too Human'' .

My favorite Nietzsche's quote; ''Christianity deprived us of the benefits of Greek and Roman cultures. Over two thousand years ago, the Greeks and the Romans had discovered the scientific method. They possessed...the methodical research, the genius of organization and administration, the faith in, the will to, man's future, the great Yes to all things... But it was ruined by cunning, stealthy, invisible, anemic vampires....''

Nietzsche blamed the christian religion for the capitalization and destruction of healthy instinctive values.
He claimed that the apostle Paul may have deliberately propagated christianity as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon") within the Roman empire as a form of covert revenge for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

Something I have thought of too, before I read his book '' The Antichrist''

a reply to: TheJourney

thus spake zarathustra is the brainchild of the industrial revolution in german europe and much like the machinery and factories that sprung into existence along with nazism and the new colder harder german were all in the mishmash of new cultural and intellectual awakenings and this book and other books by the same author were a great influence on this industrial revolution

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
Very nice summary well done... you will love the rest.
I am obsessed with Nietzsche's work
You should also read ''the Gay Science'' and ''Human, all too Human'' .

My favorite Nietzsche's quote; ''Christianity deprived us of the benefits of Greek and Roman cultures. Over two thousand years ago, the Greeks and the Romans had discovered the scientific method. They possessed...the methodical research, the genius of organization and administration, the faith in, the will to, man's future, the great Yes to all things... But it was ruined by cunning, stealthy, invisible, anemic vampires....''

Nietzsche blamed the christian religion for the capitalization and destruction of healthy instinctive values.
He claimed that the apostle Paul may have deliberately propagated christianity as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon") within the Roman empire as a form of covert revenge for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

Something I have thought of too, before I read his book '' The Antichrist''

I like Nietzsche's focus here on Paul however I also like an opposite take on Paul. That his vision was not to make a subversive religion, but rather one that would grow and develop until it could serve the Roman Empire and replace the copies of Greek Gods that the Roman people were not paying much attention to any more.

a reply to: TheJourney

I totally agree with Nietzsche on that.
I became aware of it when I moved to another country, which had radically different values.
I changed my vocabulary from "this is good" to "this is my preference", or acknowledge certain values as held collectively by specific cultures, but inherent meaning and value disappeared for me.

originally posted by: Bluesma
a reply to: TheJourney

I totally agree with Nietzsche on that.
I became aware of it when I moved to another country, which had radically different values.
I changed my vocabulary from "this is good" to "this is my preference", or acknowledge certain values as held collectively by specific cultures, but inherent meaning and value disappeared for me.

That's an interesting and useful experience. There is a passage where Nietzsche says something to that effect, like this: 'I have been across the world, among many different people. I have seen that that which brings great honor in one society, brings great shame in another. That a great sin among one people is highly praised among another.' Paraphrasing.

originally posted by: TheJourney

That's an interesting and useful experience. There is a passage where Nietzsche says something to that effect, like this: 'I have been across the world, among many different people. I have seen that that which brings great honor in one society, brings great shame in another. That a great sin among one people is highly praised among another.' Paraphrasing.

It really is true! My american values clash daily with those of the french, and I end up seeing that the values they hold are effective within their system. It becomes really clear that all is relevant to the whole context.

a reply to: TheJourney

I don't think he thought detaching oneself from value-systems was the idea, for he was against nihilism and the idea of becoming a hermit in solitude, but that one should see them for what they are.

Interpreting Zarathustra, something he said would take thousands of years, is much easier having read his preceding and follow up works the Gay Science and Beyond Good and Evil. Much of the metaphors, for instance the fire-dog, the dwarf, the priest, the tightrope-walker, are explained, albeit very subtly, in those works.

What do you think the travels of Zarathustra are symbolizing? Walking through forests, up mountains, meeting strange characters who all seem to represent an idea... What is Zarathustra, the setting, the people? It's interesting to consider this when reading it.

I know you're into spiritually-inclined thinking, and Rajneesh (Osho) has a fairly descent interpretation free online somewhere.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: TheJourney

I don't think he thought detaching oneself from value-systems was the idea, for he was against nihilism and the idea of becoming a hermit in solitude, but that one should see them for what they are.

Interpreting Zarathustra, something he said would take thousands of years, is much easier having read his preceding and follow up works the Gay Science and Beyond Good and Evil. Much of the metaphors, for instance the fire-dog, the dwarf, the priest, the tightrope-walker, are explained, albeit very subtly, in those works.

What do you think the travels of Zarathustra are symbolizing? Walking through forests, up mountains, meeting strange characters who all seem to represent an idea... What is Zarathustra, the setting, the people? It's interesting to consider this when reading it.

I know you're into spiritually-inclined thinking, and Rajneesh (Osho) has a fairly descent interpretation free online somewhere.

I'm not saying that he is teaching just to detach from value-systems, but to detach such that you open the door to forming your own value-system. Nihilistic only in the sense of a lack of objective value-system which we should all approximate to, but not in absolute lack of meaning. But in creation of meaning, rather than inherent meaning. You either create meaning for yourself, or passively accept meaning which has been created by another. That's what I'm getting this far with my limited scope of knowledge and time spent studying thus far.

And as I keep reading and trying to get a feel for his message, I will keep those books in mind as something to look into if his message continues to hold interest and I see value in it. Thanks for the suggestions. And thanks for letting me know about the Osho interpretation. I don't know if it will be the case with this or not, but I know there was a lot of Osho work available for free online, which 'the osho foundation' or something like that is getting taken off the web through lawsuits. Really sad and contrary to Osho's message actually, but these people are trying to have 100% exclusive control over everything he did, not letting anyone else use it without their profiting.