They are neither male nor female

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Of course i accept that, the Hebrews had a whole different take on things, though to some extent the marginalization of the cult of Enlil and de facto that of his son Nergal by the cult of Marduk was a step in that direction, the Hebrews simply taking it to a polemical extreme, one which the Mesopotamians could never have done as it would have rent their entire Pantheon asunder.

a reply to: audenine

Yes there is that of course, the Herm-Aphrodites and as you suggest they had their own cultic following.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Enlil's cult began to lose strength during the Agade dynasty of Sargon, who actually beheaded Lugal.zage.si, the King who, it was believed, had been expressly chosen by Enlil to rule over the land of Sumer. Sargon's blatant disregard for Enlil's decree, and Nippur itself (which was sacked and looted twice during the Agade dynasty) is what really began to weaken Enlil's control among the Anunnaki.

The figure who rose to prominence in place of Enlil was actually Inanna, Sargon's personal goddess, who was also the favorite of Sargon's daughter Enheduana, High Priestess of the great ziggurat at Ur.

Marduk, as a figure-head, didn't actually come into prominence for another 200 years or so, during the Old Babylonian empire (c. the reign of Hammurabi). Unlike a traditional monotheism though, Marduk didn't eliminate other gods. He combined them into his own makeup, becoming what is known as a Henotheism, where "lesser-gods" are perceived as emanations of the greater figure-head.

Marduk was not alone though, as the Enuma Elish clearly depicts other generations of deities, and his own family, with Sarpanetum as wife, and Nabu as son, reveals the polytheistic undercurrent present even in Marduk-era Babylon.

The real monotheism of Mesopotamia was actually developing in the north, in the land of Assyria, where Ashur, the Assyrian Enlil, was physically absorbing the powers and cultic images of previous deities of authority. The "solar disc" of Ashur being an emblem of Utu, the former Sumero-Akkadian sun-god. The archer who rides it being Ninurta, the former Sumero-Akkadian war-god.

Ashur is really where monotheism had root in Mesopotamia. Is it any wonder the Zoroastrian Persians adapted the solar-disc of Ashur into the Faravahar for themselves?


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Here's something though, the cult of Ashur blazing disk and all i think relates to the cult of the Celestial axis which i outlined here, that could also incorporate the bow constellation Canis Major indicating the direction of that axis, so i'm tending to look at Ashur as representative of that cult of the celestial axis, in terms of his symbolism, the bow and winged disk.

I'm also tending to see Asar-luhi at Eridu as representing that Celestial axis, who went on to become the foremost name of Marduk, so obviously then i'm considering that the premise for the power of Ashur is the same as that of Marduk, there are differences and complications, but as Asur-luhi was involved with the power of transformative magic and exorcism, and negating the influence of evil Demons, that set him on a collision course with aspects of the cult of Enlil, a new world order as it were.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

There is some truth to the idea that Aššūr represents the celestial-axis. However, this only applies during the Assyrian occupation of Babylon (727-625 BC). It was only during this brief period that Aššūr found prominence in the Babylonian Enuma Eliš as a cultural redaction of the primordial god Anšar, the prototypical sky-god and great grandfather of Marduk.

This, of course, was a political maneuver to belittle the waning cult of Marduk, which had begun to fall out of favor after Tukultī.apil.ešarra (Tiglath Pileser) III, king of Assyria, sacked Babylon. In the Enuma Eliš Anšar is the celestial axis, so by aligning Aššūr with Anšar the Assyrians had, whether they knew it or not, effectively attributed the celestial axis to Aššūr.

This was a short-lived association though, as Nábû.ápal.uṣur (Nabopollasar) reclaimed Babylon in the name of the Chaldean empire roughly a century later, and deposed both Marduk and Aššūr as king of the Anunnaki, in favor of the god of wisdom and writing, Nábû, who had found great prominence among the Chaldean theologians.

The solar-disc of Aššūr is not a representation of the celestial axis though. It is representative of the flaming disc of the sun. The Sumerian god Utu utilizes this same symbol, as well as the pictographic sun-disc, roughly 2000 years earlier in Sumerian and Akkadian art, two cultures who had no knowledge of the celestial axis, as advanced astronomy of that nature began in Babylon, not Agade or Sumer.

Not that the Assyrian solar-disc couldn't have been adapted to represent the celestial axis during the brief Assyrian occupation of Babylon, that is without a doubt possible, and in all honesty probable, as astronomy and astrology gained a lot of popularity during the Assyrio-Chaldean period.



In truth, the solar-disc is a combination of 3 symbols.



• The solar-disc of Utu forms the base symbol, around which the great Thunderbird forms (see # 2), and upon which the war-god rides (see # 3).

The reason for the use and absorption of Utu's symbol is that the Assyrians saw themselves as the rightful lords of Mesopotamia, and under the auspices of Aššūr.bani.pal (Ašurbanipal) they damn near proved it, extending their empire to include Sumer, Agade, Assyria, Egypt, the Levant, and parts of Anatolia and Elam. As Utu formerly represented justice and the divine law, his symbol was adapted to cement Assyria's right to rule.

• The Imdugud- or Anzû-bird, who represented the chaotic force of destructive Nature: thunderstorms, rockslides, hail, floods, torrential rains.

Some scholars associate this bird with Ninurta (see # 3), believing that Ninurta was the Imdugud prior to his metamorphosis into an Apotropaic figure against such forces.

This, of course, in conjunction with the solar-disc of Utu, is representative of Assyria's mastery of the land and its once-chaotic forces. Again, by the height of the empire under Ašurbanipal the Assyrians had become masters of Mesopotamia.

• Finally, riding upon the Imdugud is Ninurta-Aššūr, symbolic of war and martial power.

Assyria, of course, being history's first imperialistic empire, launching campaign after campaign in the name of resources and power. The assimilation of Mesopotamia's greatest war-god into the symbol of Assyria's pride should come as no surprise. This same method being behind the assimilation of Enlil and Inanna into Aššūr's "family" as well.

Justice, mastery of nature, and military might were Assyria's virtues, and their symbol, an amalgam of ancient pictographs, accurately displays this.



Next, the constellation you're referring to is called Ban, and it is actually the constellation of the goddess Inanna (her bow, a symbol long since associated with her). The arrow of this bow is the constellation of Ninurta, whose prowess as a warrior, and use of archery when hunting his foes on the plains, should make the association obvious.

Inanna and Ninurta have very interesting connections too, connections that exist solely in Assyria. According to Sumer Inanna was the daughter of the sky-god An, and served as heirodule in his temple, the É.ana. By the dynasty of Agade Inanna had become the daughter of Nanna, the moon-god, and been elevated to Queen of Heaven and goddess of love and war.

In Assyria though, Inanna was seen as the daughter of Ninurta, and unlike in Babylon, almost all of her sex-goddess qualities disappear, showing up en masse in Babylonia, leaving only a potent war-goddess in the North.

This masculinization of Inanna was even rendered artistically, as the "bearded Inanna" of Assyria, which became a cultural motif and fan-favorite of people who don't understand Inanna's origins.

Ninurta and Inanna's relationship, being father and daughter, explains why the bow and arrow constellations were associated with each other.



Asarluḫi is an interesting figure too, actually, as he does not begin with his exorcist and magician capabilities. In the Sumerian era Asarluḫi was a god of the River Ordeal, marking him as a god of justice and law. Alongside this, he was known as the "August Sage," implying wisdom and knowledge of proper living. All of this creates an image of Asarluḫi as a type of judge, more than a magician or exorcist.

Asarluḫi really gained his power over magic and incantations when the village of Kuara, Asarluḫi's village, was absorbed by the expanding city-state of Eridu (Enki's capital). When Asarluḫi was assimilated into the Eridu pantheon he became the "son of Enki" and thus attained additional skills, adding magician and exorcist to his retinue of judge.

Asarluḫi was absorbed into the cult of Marduk though, there's no denying that. Although whether or not Asarluḫi was ever associated with the celestial axis remains unknown to me. The Sumerians and Akkadians certainly make no mention of this. However, if you have evidence to support this I would be very interested to know more about it.



In case you're wondering, Inanna, Ninurta, and Asarluḫi are three of the gods (among a large handful) whose origins and evolution across Mesopotamia I am in the process of a dedicated study of. They are at the center of my own research paper, so if you want to learn more about them I'd be happy to discuss further.


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

The issue i would have is with regards to how the iconography of the winged disk above the celestial axis/tree of life develops, in my opinion the constellation at the top of that tree was Canis Major.



I made the case for this here with Mysteries of Dilmun, that investigation largely derived from considering that the earliest representations of Canis Major were as Uttu the spider Goddess, as i had extensively studied early seals which seemed to suggest this in relationship to Ninshubur as a seated woman representing the earliest identification of Orion., yes Canis Major goes on to become the bow constellation and Uttu iconography soon fades and so we can have a figure with bow at the top of the tree rather than a spider.





In this thread Stairway to Sirius i look at how in Northern Mesopotamia the transition from spider to winged disk can actually be traced;



And here's the paper that allowed me to make that case, winged disks and sacred trees, having looked at all this one thing i can say for sure is that it is not the solar disk that is seen winged above the tree of life, it is the blazing star Sirius.

I also looked at the celestial axis of Asur-Osiris and there the solar disk of the Djed column represents the 'small sun', it is correspondent to astral illumination, see Isis Raising the Dead

So Assur and the Royal Cult is very directly related to that stellar motif seen above the tree of life in Assyria, the highest principle of what it involved, with regards to how Asurluhi can be related to it you sort of answered that yourself unwittingly, because Asurluhi as the river of ordeal is concerned with a transformative point upon it, the point were the Milky Way crosses the celestial axis in the region of Taurus and which marked the transition into the afterlife and the upper branches of our tree of life, celebrated in terms of the Akitu Festival.

Enki has named you with the name Id-lu-rugu (i.e. River of the ordeal, an epithet of Asarluḫi) , the sublime course ……. You cleanse the just man like gold, and you hand over the wicked to extinction.

Look also at the cult of Nungal and the adaptation in her cult of the river of ordeal as a metaphor for incarceration and rehabilitation within her dungeons, a sort of dying and returning to life.

In Eridu all classes of Priesthood would pay homage to and circumambulate Asarluhi, indicating he had the role of centralized axis in the same sense that Asur-Osiris was the personification of the Djed column, but in general Asarluhi represented transformative process that had its basis in the Abzu, and that also applies to the tree of life.

"I am Asalluhi, who was born in the Eunir-temple"

"I am Asalluhi, who knows the depth of the vast netherworld-river

"I am Asalluhi, whom Laguda magnifies in the Lower Sea"

"I am Asalluhi, being the bond of all and the first-born of Mami."

"I am Asalluhi, unveiling cuneiform"

"I am Asalluhi, whosr glare destroys a wall of stone"

"I am Asalluhi, inspecting esoteric sources, creating cosmic plans"

"I am Asalluhi, who removes illness and destroys the great demons

I don't really see Asurluhi as a judge, all the evidence suggests his cult had it's basis in shamanism and exorcism, which of course does involve making judgements of sort, but there were other Gods specific to the principles of judgement, i mean i've just looked at all the evidence here.

So that's my opinion on these matters and where my own research has led me, of course i'll always be happy to look at any considerations you might have from your own research, i don't really like addressing to many points though as i've tried to do here in trying to demonstrate were i'm coming from, i prefered things when it was just spider woman at the top of the tree.

i don't really like addressing to many points though as i've tried to do here in trying to demonstrate were i'm coming from, i prefered things when it was just spider woman at the top of the tree.

Don't forget bat woman. Lol

a reply to: Kantzveldt



Ok, one question, why do you call them demons?

The verse brought up about the resurrection apparently is not what many think it means

Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

These should help narrow it down some

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

originally posted by: flowofmysoul
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Ok, one question, why do you call them demons?

Experience is pointing to them not being as portrayed by "mans modern story" especially the likes of David Icke, John lash, etc

Me and er, I and I, have a agreement.

She can wrap me round her little finger, but she is not allowed to wrap her tail around me. Lol.

She's cool with that.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

"has no mouth has no limbs has no face"

Got it.

"always flies about like a bat in the clefts at night"
"always flies around at night like a bird in the dark"

Wait, how can it fly like a bat or a bird if it has no limbs??

"prowls about quitely at night like an urban fox"

Wait, how can it prowl like a fox if it has no mouth?

"urinates like an ass while crouching over a man"

(With a malicious smile: ) Even demons run out of pee eventually...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I thought demons were falled angels - implying they somehow retain agelic characters, such as wings.