[Russia Vs America the eternal battle and struggle]

We all know of the eternal battle and struggle between the two power houses since the beginning of WW1 and Before it.
However, the recent Actions by the US with Sanctions and the constant bombardment of false accusations is beginning to make me wonder.... Does the government think we are that stupid?

I mean sure there are a few here and there that never picked up the History Books other then the American History. Sure there are a few of us who are missing a few braincells and would jump into war on share Patriotism. Yet.... what makes me dumbfounded is that they are so open about it and how much of it we believe.

So I ask of you my fellow world civilians... Why are we so susceptible towards doing what our government wants?

Let's put for example the recent Ukrainian Crisis... Sure! Russia sent weapons to Donbass and Donetsk to help the so called Civilians to defend themselves from the National Ukrainian Military. Why? because if they didn't more people would have died from the bombings... Hasn't US done the same or even more? While they blame Russia for the provocation? US weapons,US Merc's etc etc... Also before you say there are Russian Merc's there aren't those are Russian Ex-military members who on their own will without being paid went to help the Donbass and Donetsk people. Yes! There is a big difference!

Russia also sent aid and food to the effected regions as well.. While America and most of the EU said that sending aid to women, children and elderly in the war zone - Is a PROVOCATION of WAR?

Recently after months of Russia beating on the door of UN with the proof of Genocide in Ukraine, the UN finally admitted that YES! there is a genocide that needs to be investigated. The OSCE which is the current leading organization in the region has recorded the shelling of Schools,Churches,Hospitals,Kindergartens and Elderly Homes by the Ukrainian National Military. While the US and EU denied such facts and - Never showed the truth?

Why do we have the UN? If they at first began to favor one nations views and giving that nation what I would call nothing less of [Sexual Favors....] I am not saying that Sexual Favors are bad

The only two organizations that began to observe and truly try to Establish peace within the region was the OSCE and The Red Cross... These two organizations I think deserve a Nobel Peace Prize

They have made sure that the so called Russian Rebels [Which are actually miners,doctors,factory workers, teachers and others from different countries that saw the truth came to help in the time of need of the innocent civilians who are being oppressed] are treating National Ukrainian POW's with fare and proper Human Rights during the conflict of War. That they are not assaulting the civilians etc etc.... While the same can not be said for the National Ukrainian Army that has returned POW's with broker ribs,lacerations, burn marks, reports of water boarding, electric torture, cutting the swastika into their bodies etc etc... Which is condemned by the Nuremberg Process, Amnesty International and UN Human Rights laws...

If you don't believe me? Then buy a ticket to Ukraine and go over to Donbass and Donetsk... Why? It's cheap and you can see the TRUTH for yourself!

You could also go to Kiev and see how the Nationalist who now warship Hitler and Bandera throw Ukrainian Politicians into bins for supporting the peace in Ukraine or supporting talks with Russia to find common ground. You could watch it for yourself and maybe decide to join the so called Rebels like a few Americans, Polish, Spanish, Italians and other World Civilians have.

You don't have to believe me or take it into consideration, but those of you that do and act upon it I THANK YOU for at least considering it or acting upon it.

So I leave you with this question.. Why?

I think that many believe Russia is the aggressor, and we should analyze whether that is the truth. Russia has been involved in two major conflicts since Putin has come to power, and one of those was instigated by the CIA-backed Islamic International Brigade, and it is fair to say that Russia was provoked into that fight, and that the US was wrong with their involvement. Then there was the Georgian invasion, which again was not instigated by Russia. So there have been no wars of aggression by that nation since Putin has come to power, but Russia is being portrayed as being evil and aggressive.

Now what is going on in Ukraine can be viewed from different angles, and I can see both sides being semi-correct in their assessments. Russia has violated Ukrainian sovereignty in my opinion. It is true that Russia never acknowledged it officially to begin with, but that does not change the fact that Ukraine is an independent and functioning nation. Russia invaded Crimea, claiming that it was to protect the Russian citizens there, but in my opinion that is like Mexico invading Southern California to protect the Mexican citizens and those of Mexican descent who live there. It makes no sense. (Yes I understand there are major differences, but that is the best analogy I can think of.) The truth of the matter is that Russia invaded Crimea because of its strategic importance to them. Their Black Sea Fleet needs that area, as it is essential to their overall military strategy in the region. So the truth is that Russia is lying about their reasons for invading sovereign territory, and the invasion itself was wrong, and Russia is to blame.

Now one can claim that the US and NATO in general are placing large amounts of pressure on Russia's borders, etc, but that does not justify the invasion of another sovereign nation. We can also claim that the US was wrong in its wars of aggression, and that claim is true, but two wrongs don't make a right, as the saying goes. The actions of the US, however wrong they are, does not justify such actions by Russia. So here is the way I see it: Russia is to blame for violating the sovereignty of Ukraine. The US is justified in sanctioning Russia for their actions, even if it is hypocritical. Right doesn't go out the windo w just because one has committed a wrong in the past. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Russia is also controlling, either directly or indirectly, partisan forces within Ukraine. There are Russian mercenaries and fighters in sovereign Ukrainian territory, and this warrants a military response by Ukraine, and Russia has no right to "protect" those who raise up arms against the Ukrainian government.

Russia can go to war with Ukraine if they want, but they are not justified in doing so. The US government is wrong, and they have a double standard when it comes to right and wrong. But they are right to claim that Russia is the aggressor, even if one thinks Russia has been forced to act, which is not true. The first two examples I gave are instances where Russia was forced to act. They were invaded, or territories under their control were invaded. So how is it that Ukraine is not force to act when they're invaded by Russia? As to the ignorance of the American people, I say most of the blame lies with the media and the government, as they are the ones who tell people lies and mislead them in general. Even people who seek the truth on their own cannot know when they've found such truths, or when they're being lied to.

Too many people are too willing to believe anything they are told by the government and media, because these people cannot fathom that such blatant lies would be spoon-fed to them. They do not believe themselves gullible, and they do not believe their government could have anything but the interests of the country at heart...They would be wrong in both instances. And some cannot grasp the fact that party alliances among the US citizenry are in a large way responsible for the perpetuation and success of government lies. If people were not so divided along party lines they would see through the lies of their own party more easily. That goes for the left and right.

Accidental double post...I apologize.

At the very least there is equal blame to both the US and Russia. More likely than not the blame lies heavily on the US. Which nation has toppled more regimes since the fall of the Soviet Union? The answer to that question should give you a good idea of where blame lies.

originally posted by: tavi45
At the very least there is equal blame to both the US and Russia. More likely than not the blame lies heavily on the US. Which nation has toppled more regimes since the fall of the Soviet Union? The answer to that question should give you a good idea of where blame lies.

Mmmm indeed 'slowly rubs stubble'
At the same time we should look at the results it reaped, extremists groups, mass executions, coc aine flooding those countries streets. It does make one wonder doesn't it?

The OP makes a good point of not knowing the actual situation without being there hard to access. However depending on which side one talks to the opinions expressed will be biased toward their own. We live in a golden age for propaganda as well as one of suppression through fear. Got to keep the people afraid. What's that noise? Boo! It's an old, wrinkled, vodka smellin' commie ghost! Damn ... I knew they just went into hiding behind sudo-corporate facades. Hell, some of the latest bad guys on the big screen are right out of a Marvell comic. You couldn't market anything better. Hmmm ... market ... is not war a business?

a reply to: VitaArcanum

You mean those clandestine drug operations by the various agencies of the US government like the CIA? Eh we probably shouldn't wonder too much. The American government loves us like a father loves his children.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: VitaArcanum

You mean those clandestine drug operations by the various agencies of the US government like the CIA? Eh we probably shouldn't wonder too much. The American government loves us like a father loves his children.

Oh are you talking about those groups in Afghanistan that get their young kids to shoot their mothers in the head. To destroy them enough to get into the drug trade? You mean those type of black budget funded operations?

Or are you talking about the Federation Building Fire in Moscow that was actually a location of a safe house in Russia via the CIA/Black Op?

originally posted by: cprnicus
The OP makes a good point of not knowing the actual situation without being there hard to access. However depending on which side one talks to the opinions expressed will be biased toward their own. We live in a golden age for propaganda as well as one of suppression through fear. Got to keep the people afraid. What's that noise? Boo! It's an old, wrinkled, vodka smellin' commie ghost! Damn ... I knew they just went into hiding behind sudo-corporate facades. Hell, some of the latest bad guys on the big screen are right out of a Marvell comic. You couldn't market anything better. Hmmm ... market ... is not war a business?

The first ever profit via war was done by the Rothschild during the Napoleon war which enabled them to pretty much buy the entire continent of England. Or the Rockefeller gold scheme that sucked out the 90% of Europe's gold during WW2.

When there is blood in the streets make money not war... but.... if you started the war to make the money - Isn't that beneficial also?

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: VitaArcanum

You mean those clandestine drug operations by the various agencies of the US government like the CIA? Eh we probably shouldn't wonder too much. The American government loves us like a father loves his children.

For example don't forget that wet work the US had done on the Saudi's couple years back. A job came through that required to make them more flexible towards the US demands. So what better way then to fake a gay murder on a Saudi prince. I'm pretty sure some of you heard about it and unfortunately it was taken care of by a sub branch group based in NY. They tend to devil in such contracts and wet work... that is when a group such as NSA or CIA can not legally/illegally take care of a problem.

The prince was drugged and taken to a room where his servant was undressed and then murdered with some evidence planted. Gay association in Saudi Arabia is a bit over top usually ends up either in the murder of an entire family and disowning their financial rights.

Thus the problem was taken care of! They give us exclusive rights and support in the Middle East and we give them the insurance that the information/evidence would not surface incriminating the prince in a Gay murder/Gay scandal.

Don't ask me how I know this - let's just go with that I do...

originally posted by: JiggyPotamus

Russia invaded Crimea

There is no "invasion" of Crimea ... Crimea is and always has been Russian, period. There is absolutely nothing to discuss on that issue, and never has been. And it isn't open for discussion by the Russians.

You decide to say that Krutchev gave Crimea to Ukraine ... that was within the Soveit federation, and while that Soviet federation existed ... it didn't matter. But when the Soviet federation fell apart, as the members couldn't agree on what it was about ... whatever Krutchev did, fell apart as well.

This should be evident, even to a retard ... seriously speaking.

And on Ukraine itself ... it has always been divided into two, pro-Russians and pro-Germans ... Nazis. And to even "suggest" that the pro-Russians should live in a pro-Nazi government, is literally retarded.

Truth of the matter is, that Europe owns it's current freedom to Russia ... not the US. This is a fact, that is sadly mistaken by Europe. Germany ows it's freedom and unification, to Russia. They decided to just give up on any Empirical thought process. The Russians are also those who defeated Nazi Germany, not the US. At the end of the war, the US/Britain were losing against Germany ... their Success on the invasion, had already been stopped, and literally starting to reverse them. Which made the US/Britain pleed for the Russians to do their work, which they did and defeated Germany.

And today, in Ukraine ... Europe again, has Russia to thank for the Peace. If it was any other nation in the World, China or the US ... nukes would already be flying. Instead, Putin and his cabinet, chose to do this in a covert and civilized manner. Just as in Crimean, avoiding casualties ...

If it was up to the US/Britain or Sweden. We'd be dying of nuclear waste and fallout here in Europe. These madmen, think that provoking the Russians into war is a good thing. Given the US track record of using "not so depleted" Uranium, that caused 95% of children to be born deformed in Fallujah, I don't think the option of the US or it's lackies in Europe is a positive issue.

The truth is, Europe should send the US packing after Ukraine .... they put the lives of entire Europe at risk. The same applies to Sweden and other European nations, that consider "provoking" the Russians into a conflict is a good thing. These individuals, whereever they are, are relying on that the Russians will remain civilized and not use "not so depleted" Uranium, Pestisides, Chemical or Biological weapons, that the US track record show they have used extensively in all their wars. But the US WILL use these weapons, as they did in Yougoslavia ... and that will cause massive deaths in Europe.

Send the US packing ...

As long as there exist differences in politics, there will be war.
"War is the continuation of politics by other means." - Carl von Clausewitz

Hopefully as we become more civilised as a species, we will learn an immutable form of self-governance.

It would seem that there are 2 specific expectations of governance.

One, is for them stay out of our lives, and leave us to our own determination.
The other, is for them to provide for us and lead us.
This is inherent in the peoples of every nation, depending on their economic position.

In this era, the politics of economic disparity, is the key factor in keeping the world in perpetual conflict.
No government scheme, like communism or taxation is going to correct this disparity.
Neither is a total lack of organised laws and charity.

plead allegiance to no country's government, because Nationalism is toxic.
I think many conflicts perpetrate into war,not over fundamental issues, but just because no one is prepared to loose face.

My view over the Ukrainian situation is that America should sit this one out,
as to not antagonise the situation.
They should clean up some of their 'good intentions' before engaging in more.

a reply to: VitaArcanum

We all know of the eternal battle and struggle between the two power houses since the beginning of WW1 and Before it.

There was no conflict between the United States and Russia prior to the first World War. In fact, Russia sold the United States the Alaska territory. The US would not become a world power until it intervened in the Great War. Russia's principle struggles were with the Ottoman Empire, Britain and Germany. Prior to the Great War, they suffered a humiliating defeat by Japan, leaving some islands claimed by both countries to this day. Your Mazdean vision is simply wrong.

Does the government think we are that stupid?

Putin's lies have been so transparent he must thing people are stupid indeed.

Why are we so susceptible towards doing what our government wants?

Because the Russian government blatantly controls all the media in Russia. You have no outside sources of information.

Sure! Russia sent weapons to Donbass and Donetsk to help the so called Civilians to defend themselves from the National Ukrainian Military.

Correct, yet Putin has vigorously denied that fact.

Also before you say there are Russian Merc's there aren't those are Russian Ex-military members who on their own will without being paid went to help the Donbass and Donetsk people.

Russia and the rebels publicly claim that the Russian soldiers known to be fighting against the Ukrainian army and their irregulars are volunteers, fighting in their spare time. There have been cases of Russian soldiers admitting they were on duty.

Russia also sent aid and food to the effected regions as well..

That much is true. It is not known how much of that aid went to civilians, and whether it was distributed fairly to both rebel supporters and loyalists alike.

While America and most of the EU said that sending aid to women, children and elderly in the war zone - Is a PROVOCATION of WAR?

No-one ever said that. What was provocative was the games that Putin played with neutral observers like the OSCE and Red Cross.

Recently after months of Russia beating on the door of UN with the proof of Genocide in Ukraine, the UN finally admitted that YES! there is a genocide that needs to be investigated.

False. Russian officials repeatedly made statements to the media that war crimes and genocide were occurring in Ukraine. They never provided evidence, much less proof. They did request that the UN mount an investigation, and the UN has agreed. So far, this investigation has found no evidence of genocide. The alleged "mass grave" is beginning to appear to be a hoax. The UN has noted crimes against civilians by both sides.

The OSCE which is the current leading organization in the region has recorded the shelling of Schools,Churches,Hospitals,Kindergartens and Elderly Homes by the Ukrainian National Military. While the US and EU denied such facts and - Never showed the truth?

Wrong again. The media have been reporting on the shelling. The issue is whether civilian buildings are being targeted deliberately.

The only two organizations that began to observe and truly try to Establish peace within the region was the OSCE and The Red Cross... These two organizations I think deserve a Nobel Peace Prize

Fair enough. If only Putin would cooperate with them even if it did not serve his immediate needs.

You could also go to Kiev and see how the Nationalist who now warship Hitler and Bandera throw Ukrainian Politicians into bins for supporting the peace in Ukraine or supporting talks with Russia to find common ground. You could watch it for yourself and maybe decide to join the so called Rebels like a few Americans, Polish, Spanish, Italians and other World Civilians have.

Or you can go to Donetsk and see how they worship Hitler there:

So I leave you with this question.. Why?

Why what?

a reply to: bjarneorn

Why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over again? Crimea has not been Russian since the beginning of time. Everyone saw Russian troops in the streets while it was still legally part of Ukraine, which constitutes an invasion. Etc, etc.

originally posted by: VitaArcanum
So I leave you with this question.. Why?

Because the decision makers in Washington and those in charge of the military REFUSE to believe that anyone on this planet can be stronger or more successful than us. When they see someone like Russia who for decades has been the only country on the planet who has a realistic chance of being just that, they try everything in their arsenal (aside from actual hand-to-hand or air-to air-combat.........they enlist lesser entities to do that dirty work for them) to make sure it doesn't happen.

They're losing that fight, always have been really, so they now resort to name-calling. No one is going to actually come right out and admit it, but people in Europe and other parts of the eastern hemisphere have known this for a very long time now. But to keep the political peace and to keep relations civil, people keep the cold hard truth close to the vest. That being, American leadership is a running joke. No one really takes them seriously. They're like the neighborhood bully that everyone used to be scared of, but now feel sorry for because he's a little "short".

I have nothing to lose by pointing out the obvious, so why the hell not?

Europe and the US seem to be instigating the recent events, trying to acquire the Ukraine is the reason. This isn't about the Ukrainian people, they loose either way. The industrialized world is trying to find low paying labor to do their work and also inexpensive oil and gas. They will force other countries that disagree with their politics to spend a lot of money on their ability to protect themselves from overthrow, making it look like the other side is poor and depressed. In reality, the US is not very solvent, riddled in debt. Many countries are the same in the industrialized world, following the Wests deceptive lead. I see a collapse of the industrialized economies as just a matter of time. Sooner or later you must pay the piper.

a reply to: rickymouse

Europe and the US seem to be instigating the recent events, trying to acquire the Ukraine is the reason.

Then why is Russia the only country that has acquired land?

a reply to: DJW001

If European countries were to acquire the Ukraine, they would be bound to giving them the same wages and rights as their own citizens. It is better economically to make them trade partners so that the citizens of that country work cheaper and don't have the strict regulations in the workplace as is found in their countries.

originally posted by: VitaArcanum


We all know of the eternal battle and struggle between the two power houses since the beginning of WW1 and Before it.

/quote]



I stopped reading there.

Before WW I there was only one world superpower ....... The British Empire

The U.S. and Russia only achieved that status after WW II

edit on 20-10-2014 by alldaylong because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: DJW001

If European countries were to acquire the Ukraine, they would be bound to giving them the same wages and rights as their own citizens. It is better economically to make them trade partners so that the citizens of that country work cheaper and don't have the strict regulations in the workplace as is found in their countries.

Membership in the EU is voluntary. Ukraine has not been admitted into the EU or NATO precisely to avoid making Putin angry. It has not prevented Putin from stealing Ukrainian land. The economic accord that Yanukovych refused to sign would have established EU manufacturing and labeling standards in Ukraine. Why did he feel that was threatening? Why did he flee to Russia rather than harmonize Ukraine's standards with a potentially lucrative new market? Ukraine will not be able to trade freely with the EU until the accord is signed, so your theory makes no sense.